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Hiuh Frontiers 


^* the Space Age Newspaper of 
Psychedelics, Science, Human 


j- ***&*. Potential, Irreverence & Modern v 


?»>? Zes/y Albert Nofmenn Terence McKenn* 
Zippy Jack Szrfatti Peter Stafford 
Andrew Wet'/ Paul Sega I I Bruce £/sner 







A S.F. Bay Area Publication 



High Frontiers 1 


PG. 1 Little Girl On T 

Table of Contents 

Pg.3 Editorial Page 

Pg.4 Access Codes and 

Leary interview 

Pg.5 Everybody Has Co 

Hofmann interview 

Pg.6 Jack Sarfatti's 

Pg. 7 The Monkey Is Be 


Pg.8 Understanding Mi 

Weil interview 

Pg.9 High Longevity - 


Pg.10 Book Reviews - 

Burroughs and Robert A Galactic Tapp 

Field - Terence McKen 

Pg. 15 Multiple Media 

and Marshall McClaren 

Pg.16 Neo-Psychedelic 

- Donna Bo 1 ton 

Carnival Blasts - Timothy 
smogonic Potency - Albert 

Future Ma 
ing Shed 

chine - Alex Cain 
- Terence McKenna 

nd-Active Drugs - Andrew 

rsation with Paul 

in conve 

New books 
Anton Wil 

ing In To 
na interv 
Maniacs - 

by William S. 

The Information 
iew //2 

Malcolm McCluhan 

Party 7-Point Pop Plan 

Special thanks are due Shared 
Visions for the use of the 4 Psych- 
edelic interviews, and especially 
to Will Nofke for having the cour- 
age to broadcast several programs 
on psychedelics over KPFA-FM cul- 
minating with the 6 hour program 
" A Day On Drugs - More Sacred Than 
Profane," an inspiration to all of 
us , 

Also to Timothy Leary, Terence 
and Kat Mckenna for inspiration and 
co-operation, and to Peter Stafford 
and Bruce Eisner for their help and 
interest, THANKS, 

Reasonable rates. Ask about 
our mail-order operation. 
Write P.O. Box Mill 

Valley, Ca . 94942 



Mind, Hallucinogens & the 1 Ching 

by Terence &. Dennis McKenna 

"... This book represents the psychedelic head trip par excellence." 

- Brain /Mind Bulletin 

"The McKenna book is a serious example of a new social and intellectual 
vanguard that... cultivates a boundless and otherworldly inner life." 

- Municipal Broadcast System 

"The most staggeringly original scientific book in ages. If the McKennas are 
right... every psychedelic trip is literally a voyage through the quantum 
information system at faster than light velocity, outside time in the local 
Einstcinian universe." 

- Robert Anton Wilson 

We at LUX NATURA agree and so have recently become the sole 
distributors of this important work. Anyone who is interested in 
psychedelics and time should read and own this book. 

The Invisible Landscape 
hardbound, 242 pp. 


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High Frontiers Need s You I 

If you think this paper is a 
worthwhile project, join us 
and help make it even better. 
Phone 435-4293 and leave a 
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Wake Up, It's 1984! 

People like to tell me that these are 
conservative times. After all, it is 1984, 
the far right has the White House, and the 
dollar is tighter than a cat's asshole. 

On the other hand, people like to tell 
me that the rate of change is accelerating. 
In the last few years, for instance, we've 
changed from an industrial-based society, 
with the majority of people employed in in- 
dustry, to an information-based society, 
with the majority of people employed in the 
information and service fields. Some forty 
years after its discovery and abuse, we're 
beginning to come to grips with the meaning 
of atomic energy, in all its forms. Physics 
is exploding with new information and ideas 
about the nature of life, the universe, and 
everything, and the role which humanity and 
consciousness play in it. This "new" physics 
is emerging now largely as a result of phy- 
sicists coming to grips with observations 
made by Einstein and Neils Bohr some sixty 
years ago. Computers, robotics, and other 
manifestations of accelerating technology 
are propelling us, kicking and screaming, 
into a liesure-based society. Hundreds of 
licensed therapies which have more to do 
with Carl Jung, Wilhelm Reich, Abraham Mas- 
low, mysticism, and gnosticism than with 
Freud or behaviorism, have taken over the 
psychology field en masse in California. 

Kids whiz by on skateboards and roller- 
skates wearing purple mohawks and bizarre 
clothes brandishing anarchistic and nihilis- 
tic slogans... ho hum. MTV assaults American 
living rooms with extreme, alien, and surre- 
alistic images twenty-four hours a day. All 
of it comes to us by bouncing signals off of 
a satellite in space ... yawn . Gays, third 
world people, and feminists are accepted and 
established as powerful political forces... 
wasn't it always thus? The largest peace 
demonstration in American history takes 
place in 1980... no big fuss. Black funk mu- 
sic explodes with eccentricity and experi- 
mentation, creating a challenging, brash, 
and optimistic space-age party music... oh? I 
had n't noticed. Manned space-stations and 
consumer s pac e- s hu t t 1 e s ? Coming right up. An 
understanding of the genetic code, how the 
brain works, how the immune system works, 
how the universe started? Oh, sure. We're 
going over the data right now. New methods 
of birthing and child-rearing? You bet. Open 
discussions of sexuality? For sure. Go for 
it. Coming to grips with the implications 
and possibilities of experiences induced by 
mind-manifesting psychedelic substances? Uh 


Coming to Grips 
with Psychedelics 

Indeed, just being alive in 1984 can be 
seen as being more psychedelic, mind-mani- 
festing, or mind-blowing than being on acid 
in 1967. Considering this acceleration in 
our culture, I would like to very carefully 
suggest that the purposeful, intelligent, 
conscious use of the variety of substances 
popularly known as psychedelics might be in- 
tended to accelerate our minds and cleanse 
our spirits, that we may better perceive and 
integrate this swift changing. We are, after 
all, arriving at the technology which is in- 
distinguishable from magick predicted by Ar- 
thur C. Clarke. Since our scientific and 
technological know-how, which can kill us 
all on any given afternoon, can also be used 
to bring about an age of abundance, liesure, 
personal growth, space exploration, and an 
infinity of other possibilities, it would be 
wise for us to do what we can to remove the 
perceptual blinders, that we may have the 
flexibility, optimism, and generosity of 
spirit to choose planetary transformation 
over oblivion. In this first issue of High 
Frontiers, we talk to four people who be- 
lieve that psychedelic substances, used in 
specific ways, are powerful tools in helping 
to remove our perceptual blinders. 

The taboo against the intelligent, pur- 
poseful use of psychedelics is beginning to 
lift. In small circles, talk of a psychedel- 
ic resurgence can be heard. At new-age gath- 
erings, one can often mention psychedelics 
without being frowned upon as a spiritual 
pariah. The first issue of High Frontiers is 
part of a growing effort to break through 
the taboo against looking at the implica- 
tions and possibilities of these substances. 

Editorial Page 

Self-Fulfillment as 
A Proposal 

I would like to propose that one of the 
most effective tactics which the human po- 
tential movement could employ in our effort 
to bring about a healthier, happier, more 
enlightened America, would be to develop 
some mechanism by which participation in the 
various schools of enlightenment, self-actu- 
alization, healing, personal growth, ad in- 
finitum, can be recognized as a form of em- 
ployment and its participants rewarded with 
a living wage. As Bucky Fuller tirelessly 
pointed out, the function of technology is 
to do more with less. Unfortunately, as our 
accelerating technology propels us, inevita- 
bly, into a liesure society, the effects are 
being experienced by many as unemployment 
and poverty. This is mainly due to our soci- 
ety's residual Protestant work ethic. But 
let us defer in favor of the philosophy of 
"doing your share" to "earn your keep." The 
question then becomes, what kind of work do 
we really need done? Do we need more people 
working at assembling automobiles, building 
weapons systems, and manipulating money? Or 
more waiters and waitresses, shopping malls, 
and pizza parlors? ( Well, maybe a few more 
pizza parlors . ) 

What we really need, what would really 
raise the standard of living, both economic- 
ally and aesthetically, would be healthier, 
happier, more enlightened, and flexible peo- 
ple. An enlightened and flexible people will 
evolve better living arrangements, with 
better methods of distributing the vast real 
wealth, the abundance which truly exists in 
this country and on this planet. They won't 
tolerate such abominations as the destruc- 
tion of food stockpiles amidst starvation, 
the continuation of fossil-fuel economics, 
or our absurd, grade-b movie-star president, 
Armageddon Man, and his trillion-dollar mil- 
itary protection racket. 

The entropy involved in having so many 
wounded, dis-eased, unhappy, and irrational 
people, dedicating themselves to making 
themselves, and each other, feel bad, is our 
bottom-line energy crisis. So let us put 
ourselves to work healing ourselves and each 
other, self-actualizing, and learning to 
deal with situations as they arise with 
greater clarity and grace. If we do this, we 
will experience greater wealth, both quanti- 
tative and qualitative. 

Irreverence & Modern Art 


The Irony & The Ecstasy 


What Makes lis Moderns 

High Frontiers 3 

"So I think it is, at this 
point, a very healthy situation 
where there is really nothing we 
can believe in . " 

Sylvere Lottringer, 1980 

"The mark of a real shit is 
that they've always gotta be 

William S. Burroughs, 1978 

"Every day I ask myself at 
least once, 'Am I a useful idiot?' 
It keeps me from taking myself to 
seriously . " 

Robert Anton Wilson, 1981 

Finally, what makes us modern is that 
we tend to see absolute sincerity and humor- 
less conviction as being dangerous, ( or 
perhaps, borish) since these emotions seem 
to us a part of the disease of fanaticism. 
One cure for this disease, which moderns em- 
ploy, is ironic distancing. This strategy 
has been the wellspring of much of modern 

and pop art, from Duchamp to Warhol to The 
Rolling Stones. You can also find this im- 
pulse expressed in the western zen of Alan 
Watts. It is what has made Bowie our renais- 
sance man. It is why I feel compelled to 
subvert the somewhat advocative tone which 
this editorial piece has had, up to this 

Perhaps High Frontiers, in linking psy- 
chedelics, science, human potential, irrev- 
erence, and modern art, is defining an emer- 
gent mind-set which will soon be recognized 
as the next wave, the cutting edge, in 
bringing about an evolutionary transforma- 
tion in humankind. I feel this is likely, 
but I'm not certain of it. Maybe, as many 
political revolutionaries believe, psyche- 
delic drugs are a cia plot. There is plenty 
of evidence to back up such a belief. Maybe 
the Luddites are right about science and 
technology. Perhaps human potential is an 
illusion, a product of bourgeois narcissism. 
Maybe the bombs will fall, and we'll never 
get a chance to realize any of these poten- 
tialities. Out on the high frontier, nothing 

is certain. 

I leave you with this zen parable from 

Andy Warhol . 

" 'How come you like jewelry 
so much, A?' B asked. 

'I don't like jewelry that 
much. Let's go buy some 
Dr. Scholl's footsavers. 
Jewelry will never replace 
Dr. Scholl's. * 

'I'd rather have jewelry,' 
B said. 


' Because a diamond is for- 
ever , ' B said . 

'Forever what?' " 

Printer: The Pacific Sun 
Publisher: Marin Mutants 
Editors: Ken Goffman 

Mark Frost 
Layout: Mark Frost 

Ken Goffman 
Typing: Ken Goffman 
Advertising: Ken Goffman 

Artwork: Donna Bolton 

Kathleen McKenna 
Collage: Somerset Mau-Mau 

Ken Goffman 

R.U. Sirius 

Mark Frost 
Associate Editors: Jeff Abbott, 
Stephan Abbott, Alex Cain, Bruce 
Eisner, Somerset Mau-Mau, 
Marshall McClaren, R.U. Sirius, 
Peter Stafford, Jane Wolfe 

^High Frontiers - Marin Mutants 
except Interviews - with Tim Leary 
pg. 4, 23, 24, 25, 26 - with 
Albert Hofmann pg. 5, 26, 27 - 
with Terence McKenna - Pg. 7, 28, 
29 - With Andrew Weil - Pg. 8, 29, 
30, 31 ®Will Nofke. Little Girl On 
The Beach - Pg. 1 ®Donna Bolton. 
Drawing on page 7 ^Kathleen 
Harrison McKenna. 'A Dream of An 
Alien Nation ^Lorenzo Kristov. 

High Frontiers 4 

Timothy Leary— Access Codes 

Timothy Leary needs no In- 
troduct ion 

This interview (as with the 
Albert Hofmann interview, the 
Andrew Weil interview, and part 
1 of the Terence McKenna inter- 
views ) was performed by Will 
Nofke, the host of "New Hori- 
zons" radio program, which is 
broadcast on KPFA-FM in Ber- 
keley, fridays 12 noon - 1 p.m. 
The interviews were given to us 
through Shared Visions of Ber- 
keley. Shared Visions has many 
programs and workshops featur- 
ing men and women on the cut- 
ting edge of the New Age/Human 
Potential movement. Tapes of 
the 4 interviews may also be 
purchased through Shared Vi- 
sions. Call 845-2216 for de- 
tails . 

This particular interview 
took place at the Julia Morgan 
Theatre in Berkeley, in July of 
1983, before a large audience. 

W.N.- I see the structure of Flashbacks 
as indicative of your own style, singu- 
larly non-linear. You begin with your 
birth. You move to Berkeley... 

T.L.- I begin 9 months before my birth. 
I begin as a hopeful, optimistic sperm. 

W.N.- Struggling. 

T.L. - No. Floating up fallopian high- 
way 101 looking for an egg. I was con- 
cieved, as I can calculate back 9 months 
before my birth, on the day that alcohol 
was prohibited in America (laughter) .The 
first 12 years of my life, I watched the 
grown-ups, all of them middle-class doc- 
tors, dentists, lawyers, army officers, 
abusing an illegal drug. So that was my 

W.N.- Then you move, very quickly, to 
Berkeley, as I recall. Then you flipped 
back to another early time with the fam- 
ily. Then you flip to something in the 
not-to-distant past. And it's very in- 
teresting what it does to anyones ' head. 
It really gives you a different time- 
frame . 

T.L.- Does it screw the head up? 

W.N.- Not screw the head up, but maybe 
put it in a perspective where you don't 
think of things as neccessarily in se- 
quence, but as somehow interrelated. 

I'd like to go back to some of those 
early experiences, how you made the move 
from what might be called a straight 
psychologist to your position as profes- 
sor, and then how you came into mind-ac- 
tive drugs. In other words, what drew 
you to a point where you felt the need 
to experiment in the process of opening 
up? Or did you know that's what was go- 
ing to happen? 

T.L. -No. It's interesting how geogra- 
phy intersects time. I'm sitting here 
today one block from a house that I had 
when I was a graduate student at Berkely 
in 1949, when my son Jack was born. At 
that time, I was writing my Ph. D. the- 
sis for the psychology department at 
Berkeley, facing a problem that had be-r 
come apparent at that time, that psychor- 
analysis, psychotherapy, and techniques 
for behavior-change and mind-change that 
existed at that time, simply didn't 
work. And all the statisitics that we 
collected a block down the road in 1948 

& Carnival Blasts 

Here's the key to the car, Son . . . 
but don't forget, responsibilities go with it." 

came up with the amazing and amusing 
box-score that talk-therapy works for 
one-third of the people, doesn't change 
one-third of the people, and makes one- 
third worse. That's whether it's a bar- 
tender or a $100-an-hour psychoanalyst. 

The problem that we were facing as 
graduate students, and that our species 
was facing, was simply that we did not 
know how to change our minds. Meanwhile, 
for thousands of years, plants such as 
cannabis, peyote, psilocybin mushrooms, 
fergot-of-rye, had been around, basical- 
ly, as answers for questions the human 
race had not been sophisticated enough 
to ask. 

While I'm on the topic of synchro- 
nic ity in space and time, about 2 hours 
ago, I went to a restaurant to have a 
bite to eat before coming to this cele- 
bration, and when I walked in the res- 
taurant, I was overwhelmed and over- 
joyed to find myself reunitied with a 
man with whom I've had many of the most 
incredible experiences of my life on at 
least 2, maybe 3 continents. There sit- 
ting in the restaurant was Eldridge 
Cleaver. I asked Eldridge to come by and 
say hello, and to share this moment with 
us, and I'd like to introduce to you a 
man for whom I have deep affection and 
respect. Eldridge, can you stand up for 
a minute and wave? 

I wanted to say something to El- 
dridge. The past few months have been a 
time of fascinating reunions, re-con- 
frontations, and re-exchanges of energy. 
You probably know, Eldridge, that I've 
been debating G. Gordon Liddy, who I 
first met in 1965 when he burst into my 
bedroom and arrested us for illegal pos- 
session of peat moss. Then about 6 weeks 
ago, in late May, I was invited back to 
Harvard. And in Memorial Hall, which is 
the sacred-sacred-sacred shrine of New 
England puritanism, and hard-boiled Kis- 
singer/ Schessinger politics, I had a re- 
union with Richard Alpert/Ram Dass, and 
the master-of ^-ceremonies was a man named 
Professor David McClellan, who was the 
chairman of the department when we got 
canned. It was on the 10th anniversary 
of our getting canned. 

I hope you don't mind if I kinda 
chat with Eldridge for a minute. I had 
an interesting experience ahmit a month 
ago, Eldridge. A lot of my book, Flashr - 
backs , has to do with my prison experi- 
ences. As a matter of fact, I wrote 2500 
and it got cut down to 500 pages. I felt 
like a movie director, shot 2500 pages 
and then the producer, who in this case 
is the publisher and the editor, started 
chopping it down, because you simply 
can't... you know, they sell books by 
the kilo now ( laughter ) . So it would 
have been priced out of the market. So 
we had to cut it down. So about 500 
pages of my experience in prison got cut 
out. There's still quite a bit about 
prison in it, including the Algerian 

" I was concieved, as I can cal 
culate back 9 months before my 
birth, on the day that alcohol 
was prohibited in America. " 

I wanted to get a review, or at 
least a reaction from a real hard-core 
corrections person, a prison official. 
Now Eldridge, when you and I were guests 
of the CDC ( that's California Depart- 
ment of Corrections ), the man who was 
the head of it was named Raymond Pacun- 
ya. I phoned Sacramento and 1 said, 
" Where's Mr. Pacunya?" And the Depart- 
ment of Corrections said, " We never 
heard of him. " Which I thought was a 
real funny comment on beauracracy. They 
heard of us, Eldridge! Anyway, I finally 
tracked him down through the department 
of pensions, and it turned out that he 
was now the head of the Department of 
Corrections in the state of Virginia. So 
I called down there and he was out, but 
I told his secretary, " Listen. This is 
Timothy Leary. Tell the director I'm go- 
ing to call him tomorrow." So the next 
day, I called, and as soon as he got on 
the phone... "TIMMY!" Now I don't know 
why prison officials call me Timmy. 
(laughter). I mean, I'm older than they 

cont. pg. 23 

High Frontiers 5 

Albert Hofmann 

Dr. Albert Hofmann, Swiss 
chemist, and discoverer of LSD, 
was in America last summer to 
celebrate and promote his book, 
LSD - My_ Problem Child . While 
here, he stopped by Shared Vi- 
sions, where he was interviewed 
by Will Nofke, before an appre- 
ciative audience. As Will said 
in his introduction of Dr. Hof- 
mann, he is a radiant being. 
Well into his seventies, he has 
maintained the good-natured 
flexibility and sense of humor 
of an enlightened man. 

Everybody Has Cosmogonic 

organs, but we did not find any extraor- 
dinary activity of this compound. And 
very strangely, quite unusually for me, 
5 years later, I should, just once more, 
prepare this compound and make it avail- 
able to our pharmacologists, and ask 
them to do broader, more extended test- 
ing, because I just had a feeling that 
there could be something more in this 
compound . 

W.N.- You sensed something was there. 

A.H.- Yes. So, I just prepared this com- 
pound. I was working the afternoon of 
the 18th of April, '43, and I was just 
at the final stage of this synthesis, 

W.N. - Dr. Hofmann, you've said that 
it's neccessary to be well-prepared to 
use the substance known as lsd, and it 
seems that your life prepared you for 
the discovery of this particular sub- 
stance which has been such a catalyst in 
so many lives . I wonder if you could 
tell us a little bit about the process 
of that discovery. What lead to it? 

A.H.- It's my belief that I was really 
prepared for this work. As you know, I 
was not searching to find a psychoactive 
compound. When I prepared this lysergic 
acid diethylamide, lsd, I had planned to 
get an analeptic compound with a circu- 
latory stimulant avtivity, a stimulant 
for the heart and breathing. It turned 
out to be a psychic stimulant, instead. 
We made this kind of discovery not by 
chance. It was serendipity. I was look- 
ing for something. I did not find what I 
was looking for. I found something else. 
That's the definition of serendipity. 

W.N.- Seems to be the definition of life 

A.H.- Yes, maybe. Do you know who coined 
this word? 

W.N.- No. I don't. 

A.H.- That was Horace Walpole in 1756, I 
believe. He had just read this fairy 
tale about the 3 princes of Serendip. 
Serendip is the ancient name for Salem. 
This was the story of some princes who 
went out on an expedition. They were 
searching for something they had 
planned to find, but then they did not 
find what they were looking for. But be- 
cause they were open-minded and curious, which consists of the crystalization of would have had without this experience 
they found other things which were a dilution in methanol, and the compound 

all useful. After having read that sto- comes out in a pure state. I started to W.N.- It's amazing, in all spiritual 
ry, he coined the word Serendipity. feel quite strange and I had a kind of traditions, it seems that there's that 

daydream I went out of the normal world," Die before ye die," that dying proc- 
W.N.- Could you tell us a little bit into a kind of other reality. I went ess and the rebirth. And it seems that 
about how how your discovery took place, home, layed down, and had a beautiful lsd is that sort of calalyst, that can 
because it is quite unusual? experience. Everything which I thought 

about, it was immediately before my 
A.H.- Yes. I prepared this compound for eyes, just quite vivid and alive. Then 
the first time in 1938 with the inten- these symptoms disappeared, and I 
tion to get an analeptic. I gave it, in thought, " Something has happened with 
the normal way, to our pharmacological m e that is most unusual." And I thought you to call your book, LSD - My Problem 
department at Sandoz. There, compounds ma ybe I had used a solvent closely re- Child , is the fact that you did not en- 
are tested in animals, and in isolated lated to chloroform, which was known to cont. pg. 26 

" It was serendipity. I was 
looking for something. I did 
not find what I was looking 
for. I found something else. 
That's the meaning of seren- 
dipity. " 


be an intoxicant. I thought maybe the 
chloroform had caused this kind of ine- 
briation, and I had reacted in such a 
strange way. The next day, I sniffed 
some of this compound and nothing hap- 
pened. So, I thought that maybe some of 
this compound I had been working on, 
this diethylamide of lysergic acid, 
could have been the cause. I decided to 
get to the bottom of this problem and 
make a self-experiment with this com- 
pound. Being a cautious man, I started 
out with one-fourth of a milligram, 
which is unusually low, with the inten- 
tion to increase, gradually, the amount. 
I then ingested this in the laboratory. 
Soon, after a half-an-hour, " Oh. That 
was the compound I had used. It came up 
very, very strong. It took me, and when 
I came home, I asked the laboratory as- 
sistant to accompany me. That was the 
famous bicycle ride. I rode the bicycle 
6 kilometers, 4 miles home and, finally 
at home, I got into a very terrifying 
situation. All was so strange and I had 
the feeling maybe I have become insane 
now. Because I did not know if ever I 
would come back off this other reality, 
and that was very terrifying. At the 
climax of the experience, about 3 or 4 
hours after I had ingested it, I had the 
feeling of being out of my body and I 
thought, " You may have died and you are 
now in another world, and you have made 
a big discovery, and now you cannot even 
enjoy it and use it, and you can never 
sell it to anybody, and you've left your 
family with 3 children." It was really a 
terrible situation. But then, finally, I 
got the feeling that I would come back 
and then a beautiful, a joyful, a peace- 
ful experience came and it was like a 
rebirth. After death, a rebirth. Then I 
enjoyed the stimulated fantasy, the ar- 
ray of colors and stimulated feeling of 
life, life coming again, and I was real- 
ly happy, and it was a happiness which I 
had not experienced before. Finally, I 
slept, and the next morning I was a 
changed human being. I had the feeling I 
had died and been reborn. This was the 
beginning of my thinking about both 
these realities. Because I had left our 
everyday reality. I'd been in another 
reality, and that was the beginning of 
an insight into our world, which I never 

take one through that trip, that journey 
from this reality to another reality, 
and with proper guidance, you can go 
through it carefully and consciously. 
And I think one of the things that lead 

High Frontiers 6 

Jack Sarfatti' s Future Machine 

Alex Cain 

Speaking with Jack Sarfatti is rath- 
er like taking acid. You are whirled in- 
to a multitude of previously unconnected 
or unthought of realities, some horrify- 
ing and some paradisical. When you are 
finished, you're not quite sure what 
just happened but you know it was impor- 

My first meeting with Jack Sarfatti, 
steeped in the noisy conversation and 
coffee-cup clangor ambience of the Cafe 
Trieste in San Francisco's North Beach 
district, was an hour-long parade of bi- 
zarre concepts and personalities, 
sparked by the seemingly innocuous ques- 
tion: What does the NEW new physics tell 
us? Jack began to warm up. 

" The NEW new physics tells us that coder. But the response probability at 

under certain circumstances the future 
can create the past. " 

When I point out that most physi- 
cists would deny this. Jack is quick 
with an answer. 

the decoder is going to be determined by 
what is going to happen to the other 
twin-encoded photon at the interferome- 
ter. So it works backward in time. 
That's what I claim will happen. Change 
"Well, they deny that you can control the rotation rate of the spinning polar- 
the faster-than-light effects. You see, izers at the encoder, and you change the 
faster-than-light effects, according to response probability at the decoder, 
relativity theory, if they were to ex- " Jungian synchronicity has already 
ist, would permit backwards- in- time com- been explained by the mechanism of ex- 
munication. The majority of physicists periments already done, but that's spon- 
think that can't happen. Now, I think taneous, uncontrolled. That's explained 
that they are wrong, simply because they by making certain assumptions about the 
are guilty of the error of overgeneral- nature of consciousness, about the model 
izing. You see, it is true that in the of the bio-computer. I'm saying it's the 
current experiments, the way that they pi-orbital electron spins in the DNA 
are set up, you cannot communicate fas- molecules and other organic molecules, 
ter than light, but, the experiment does The electron spin is a two-way switch 
show a faster-than-light influence, but like a neuron, it is a quantum neuron, 
it's uncontrolled. All these spins are linked together by 

Now Pagels ( author of The Cosmic quantum non-locality, this Einstein-Ro- 
Code , a layman's guide to the new phys- sen-Podolosky effect. So it's a big, in- 
ics ), and others like Stapp of Berke- telligent switching network. It's a big 
ley, elevate that to a general princi- computer. 

pal, because they're still trying to That's where consciousness is. In 
hang on to locality. They're trying to the patterns of quantum non-locality, 
have their cake and eat it too. I think The nerve system is only an interface, 
they're wrong, and my future machine like the control systems on an airplane, 
provides a detailed counter-example to The microprocessor part, the intelligent 
what they're saying, both in terms of a part, is the quantum mechanical spin 
physical experiment that can be repeat- system. It's Tim Leary's DNA intelli- 
ed, and in a detailed mathematical equa- gence. I have an exact model of the DNA 
tion which shows why they're wrong. " level of intelligence. It's in the spins 
Are we talking about mental proc- of the electrons. We are enormously com- 

esses of working our way back in time, 
or physical? 

" Both. You can have both. But the 

plex quantum bio-computers. 

Considering the rather far-out im- 
plications of the future machine, and 

easier thing, and what my future machine keeping in mind the treatment accorded 
is about, is the physical, telepathic earlier scientific pioneers such as Gal- 
communication. But you can have both. " ileo, or Copernicus, what are the odds 

Just how does the future machine that the future machine will ever be 
WO rk? tested? Jack Sarfatti may suffer the 

" The future machine works on a sim- fate of Robert Goddard, the pioneer of 
pie variation of the Paris experiment by modern rocketry, whose patents were ig- 
Aspet - it's the same type of photon nored by everybody except Nazi Germany, 
pair source that Aspet used in Paris. At who subsequently designed the V-2, 
the decoder end you have the same detec- based on his designs. 

tion system, basically a fixed polarizer " The Russians, in Leningrad, have 
with a counter, but at the transmitting sent me a request for information on it. 
end, I have what you call an interfero- The Soviets are very interested in it. 
meter. That is, I split the beam so that Our military knows about it. I've re- 
it goes through two paths, and both cieved some money from an advisor to 
paths have spinning polarizers. But in President Reagan. So the CIA, the KGB, 
one path, there's an optical delay line, they all know about it. 
so that the photon is a little bit de- AJ- 1 the good guys. 

layed before it hits its spinning polar- " Right. Somebody will do it eventu- 
izer ally. The Israelies, the French, the 

Therefore, there's a relative shift Brittish, they all know about it. " 
in the angle of polarization that the Now ' take a dee P breath, as we scan 
photon sees in two paths. It's that the implications of the future machine, 

" About all I can say is that Leary 
passed the mantle on to me. He said, 
' Jack , you're the leader of smi^le 
now', at the 'Stone a few years ago, 
backstage. He saluted me, said, ' Jack, 
play it red white and blue, you're the 
leader of smi^le. ' He's gonna be the 
elder statesman. I do advocate space mi- 
gration, intelligence increase, and life 
extension. Also, I think that the NEW 
new physics will be able to eliminate 
nuclear weapons. We have a shot at it. 
We have a chance to build starships to 
go to the stars, by tapping zero-point 
energy in a vacuum, which is much great- 
er than nuclear energy. We will be able 
to make psychotronic weapons which will 
control mental processes at a distance, 
but also do it from the future. 

In other words, your mind could be 
under the partial control or influence 
of a super- intelligence which doesn't 
exist yet in our time-frame, but will 
exist. " 

In other words, it's possible that, 
according to your theory, in fact it's 
highly probable, that we don't have to 
worry about. . . ■ 

" Nuclear war. Exactly. And that's 
the real meaning of Abraham's covenant 
with God, in the old testament. God is 
simply the intelligence of the future, 
talking backwards in time to the proph- 
ets. That's what revelation is all 
about, in this theory. Jesus Christ was 
a time-traveller from the future. Let's 
put it this way. Jesus himself may have 
been born of Mary, but his mind was im- 
printed by the superintelligence from 
the future. 

You know, Fred Hoyle and Francis 
Crick, the discoverers of DNA, have 
speculated that the emergence of life on 
earth must be artificial, must be the 
result of what they call directed pan- 
spermia. But, it begs the question to 
say that it must be from an alien extra- 
terrestrial, like in Spielberg. It's from 
us, in the future, creating ourselves. 
This explains the "anthropic principle" 
of the new cosmology. 

That's the basic message of my fu- 
ture machine, that we can travel 
throughout space and time. And it's 
testable! If the future machine works, 
we become gods. If the future machine 
doesn't work, we die in a nuclear war. 
That's the way I see it. 

Anyone interested in Jack's Physics for 
Non-Physicists course can contact him 
at P.O. Box 26548 San Francisco 94126. 
Jack is also hooked up to Apex Computer 
Conference Tree ( 300 band 415-673- 
9571 or 415-885-1633 ) 

A selected Jack Sarfatti reading list: 
Information: Rudy Rucker - Infinity and 
the mind; Henry Lincoln - 
Holy Blood- Holy Grail; 
Martin Gardner - Science, 
Good, Bad, and Bogus; 
Hofstadter - Godel, Escher 
and Bach; Paul Davies; God 
and the New Physics. 
Disinformation: Michael Talbot - Mysti- 
cism and the New Physics; 
Anything by Fred Wolf or 
Fritjof Capra. 

phase shift which is the non-local hid- 
den variable that allows me to control 
what's gonna happen on the other end. 

and wrap up the scientific portion of 
the interview. This final burst of mon- 
ologue was prompted by a question con- 

Now, the way you get a future machine is cerning Leary's eight stages of human 

that you simply place the encoding po- developement . How familiar is Jack with 

larization interferometer further away these levels? 

from the source of light than the decod- " Somewhat. 

er is placed. That means Chat for a giv- *"y comments? 

en pair, one photon reaches the decoder 

before its twin photon reaches the en- 



Mill Valley 

"Crystal Vista" by Iasos 

"Enormously valuable for 
generating insight into the 
relativity of one's own con- 
sciousness ..." 

Noel Mclnnis 

Brain Mind Bulletin 

Available on VHS or Beta 
$55.00 + 6% tax 


s in . 
ney s 

Terence McKenna is an Ameri- 
can scholar and a wizard. He has 
explored the far reaches of the 
human mind, something you will 
find out about by reading the 2 
interviews featured here, as 
well as by reading his book, The 
Invisible Landsacape , co-au- 
thored with his brother Denis 
McKenna , 

Terence lectures often at 
Shared Visions on such subjects 
as " The Syntax of Psychedelic 
Time. " This extraordinary ad- 
venturer seems to be equally at 
home amongst pre-literate tribes 
in the Amazon Basin, or in mod- 
ern society anticipating " a 
globalized state of information- 
al oneness." The interview is 
performed by Will Nofke. 
I wonder if you could 
with us that experience 
shaped your life and work, 
journey to the amazon ba- 

High Frontiers 7 

- Certainly. There have ac- 
ly been a number of jour- 

to the amazon which I have 
icipated in, the earliest in 

Terence McKenna 

1971, the most recent in 1981. 
In 1981, a joint e thno-bo tanical 
expedition, composed of people 
from Harvard and The University 
o*f. British Columbia, went down 
to Aquitos, in the far east of 
Peru. My brother was also part 
of that expedition. He is an 
e thno-chemis t at the University 
Of British Columbia. We were 
looking at ayahuasca, which is a 
hallucinogenic beverage token 
over a very wide area in the 
lowland jungles of Equador, Co- 
lumbia, and Peru. We were also 
looking at a very little studied 
hallucinogen called aa-koo-he- 
hey or kuri-coo, which is used 
by the Witoto, Bora, and Muinane 
people, and in both cases, these 
hallucinogenic drugs are based 
on dmt , or dmt in combination 
with some other chemical which 
potentiates the experience. 
These are probably the two least 
studied of the hallucinogens, 
although ayahuasca is a major 
folk religion over a very large 
area, and is involved in shaman- 
ic curing, and is very familiar 
to the poor classes of the low- 
land jungles of Peru, and is 
well known to the Mestizo popu- 
lations. Kuri-coo is a much less 
known drug. We were studying it 
because the orthodox pharmaco- 
logical theories say that it 
should not be orally active, and 
yet it is. So there was a scien- 
tific problem there to deal 

W.N.- Something of discovering a 
new reality for science? 
T.M.- Well, you have to have a 
scientific problem to center 
these expeditions. And then what 

The Monkey is Being Shed 

you actually brush up against Is 
the phenomenology of the drug, 
the drug as it is experienced, 
and this is far removed from the 
pharmacological issues which are 
being sorted out now in the la- 
boratory. But the experience of 
taking these drugs in the ama- 
zon, up these small tributaries 
which run into the main body of 
the river, among pre-literate 
people who are definitely not 
middle-class, and in the ambi- 
ance of the equatorial continen- 
tal jungles, was very interest- 
ing, very enlightening. 
W.N.- How did you respond to 
that? I assume that you'd exper- 
imented with other hallucinogens 
in the recent past, before you 
made that journey, and that in- 
deed you were looking for the 
effect, the psycho-physical re- 
sponse in you. Yet, apparently, 
you came upon something quite 
unexpected . 

T.M.- Yes. Well, since the mid- 
sixties, we had been interested 
in dimethyl-tryptomine , dmt, 
both because of the intensity of 
experience, and because of the 
rapidity of its onset. When dmt 
is smoked, it comes on in about 
fifteen to thirty seconds. The 
onset of the effects at that ra- 
pidity actually challenges sci- 
ence to explain it. And then, 
the content of the experience 
seemed to us to go beyond the 
orthodox model of what the psy- 
chedelic experience should con- 
stitute. In other words, the 
psychedelic experience has been 
discussed in terms of conscious- 
ness expansion, or exploring the 
contents of the personal or col- 
lective unconscious, or achiev- 
ing great empathy with works of 
art, things of that sort. What 
we found with these tryptomines 

was that there seemed to be an 
unanticipated dimension, which 
was contact with alien intelli- 
gence. I call it this for want 
of a better word. Organized in- 
tellechys which present them- 
selves in the drug trance with 
information which seemed to be 
not drawn from the personal his- 
tory of the individual having 
the experience, or even from the 
collectivity of human experi- 
ence. Later, we came to feel 
that this effect was particular- 
ized to the tryptomine halluci- 
nogens. In other words, not only 
dmt and ayahuasca and these more 
exotic amazonian drugs, but also 
psilocybin, which is probably 
the most widely experienced of 
these drugs. To me, it was as- 
tonishing that a voice could ad- 
dress you in that state, and im- 
part information, and dialogue 
with you. Gordon Wasson, who 
discovered the psilocybin mush- 
room, or who formally brought it 
to the attention of western sci- 
ence, also wrote about this phe- 
nomenon. For that matter, so did 
Plato, in discussing the logos 
for Hellenic human beings. So 
this experience of an interior- 
ized guiding voice with a higher 
level of knowledge was not alien 
In western history. However, the 
intellectual adventure of the 
last thousand years has made an 
idea like that seem preposter- 
ous, if not psycho-pathological. 
So, as moderns, as pharmacolo- 
gists exploring these drug 
states, my brother and I came 
upon this phenomenon. And in the 
ensuing years we've worked with 
It, directed other peoples' at- 
tention to it, and I would say a 
consensus has emerged that this 
is real. But a consensus has yet to 

cont. pg. 28 


In Conversation with 

Andrew Weil, M.D. 

Andrew Weil is a medical 


and nationally recognized ph 

armaco 1- 

ogist. A graduate of Harvard 


school and the author of The 


Mind and The Marriage of the 

Sun and 

the Moon, Dr. Weil currently 


as research associate in eth 


macology at the Harvard Botanical 

Museum, adjunct professor of 


tion studies at the University of 

Arizona, and president of th 

e Bene-r 

ficial Plant Research Associ 

ation in 

Carmel Valley, California* 

W.N. - Your book, Chocolate 


Morphine, covers all sorts o 


substances that are mind-active. 
How did you begin to work in 
this particular field? What in- 
trigued you about drugs? 

A.W.- As far back as I can re- 
rember, I was always interested 
in the mind and mind-body inter- 
action. I really didn't have any 
exposure to psycho-active drugs 
except alcohol, coffee, and 
things of that sort, growing up. 
I was to start my Freshman year 
at Harvard and I was in a course 
on "Sociology in American Socie- 
ty." We had to write a term pa- 
per, and I wrote on the subject 
of "Drugs in Society." That gave 
me an excuse to read everything 
on the subject and I came upon 
Aldous Huxley's book The Doors 
of Perception . He was up at 
M.I.T. that year, this was the 
fall of 1960, lecturing on vi- 
sionary experience. I wrote him 
a letter and asked him where I 
could get some mescaline, and 
he helped me. I then heard that 
there was somebody at Harvard 
who was trying to set up studies 
related to a drug called psilo- 
cybin, and that was Timothy 
Leary. I went over and met him. 
In that same year, I took a 
course in "Plants in Human Af- 
fairs" which was taught by a man 
named Richard Schultes. That got 
me interested in South America, 
and plants that affected the 

When I was in medical school 
in my last year, I set up new 
experiments with marijuana. 
Shortly after the internship, I 
took a course, for physicians, 
in clinical hypnosis at Columbia 
University. I was very struck 
listening to hypnotic subjects, 

people who had no illegal drug 
experiences, describing their 
subjective experiences from be- 
ing hypnotized, how similar they 
were to pot experiences. That 
got me thinking that altered 
states of consciousness had not 
that much to do with drugs. 
Drugs were an avenue into them, 
but there were lots of other 
things that led to the same 
place. And that insight led me 
to the path that resulted in The 
Natural Mind . I continue to be 
very interested in mind-body in- 
teractions, but my real inter- 
ests, now, have to do with heal- 
ing, and ways that healing can 
be combined with medical treat- 
ments. ( I think that instead of 
determining whether a drug makes 
you high or not, the same fac- 
tors of belief, and unconscious 
belief, determine whether treat- 
ment results in healing or not.) 
So that's my main interest. 

W.N.- You speak of the medical 
profession in a different way 
than it is normally spoken of. 
Very often the medical profes- 
sion is accused of not being re- 
sponsive to these alternative 
ways, of only dealing in drug 
therapy. I sense that you've 
found that there are many who 
are now more open to, we can 
call it, holistic. . . 

A.W.- I think it's beginning to 
change, but there still is a 
long way to go. I think medical 
doctors are, rightfully, the 
people who should manage drugs. 
There are great deficiencies in 
medical education about that. 
There are certain areas, like 
nutrition, doctors are just not 
educated in. That extends to the 
drugs they prescribe, as well. 
Most doctors rely on informa- 
tion, in prescribing drugs, that 
is put out by the pharmaceutical 
industry. And that is hardly ob- 
jective information about drugs. 
There are objective sources 

about drugs, but doctors don't 
read them. Furthermore, in the 
past 150 years, I think medical 
doctors have directly caused 
most of the drug abuse in this 
country, by thoughtlessly pre- 

scribing powerful psycho-active 
drugs that they didn't under- 

W.N.- Just today I was referring 
to some pages from an eminent 
pharmacy in San Francisco. I'd 
acquired their old books with 
their marvelous, old, yellowed 
pages that are covered with pre- 
scriptions, and among these pre- 
scriptions are many for mor- 
phine, many for cannabis, co- 
deine, and right on down the 
line. And the foremost families 
of San Francisco were repeated- 
ly prescribed these drugs. 

A.W.- Well, the appeal of psy- 
cho-active drugs in medicine is 
that they really make people 
feel different. You pay atten- 
tion to being high, rather than 
to your aches and pains. The 
problem with that kind of pre- 
scription is that it doesn't do 
anything about the underlying 
reason for the problem. So, it 
sets the stage for repetitive 
use of the substance. And all of 
them are dependence producing. 
It's not just the doctor's 
fault, either. Patients, in this 
culture, have a high expectation 
of getting drugs. Doctors are 
under a great deal of pressure 
to give drugs. You don't have 
too much choice. You can not 
give anything, and run the risk 
that the patient's going to 
leave and go to someone else. 
You can give a placebo. But most 
doctors don't like to do that. 
I'm a great believer in the val- 
ue of placebos. The third 
choice, the one that's most pop- 
ular, is to give a non-specific, 
psycho-active drug that might 
change people's mood for the 
better. And if it doesn't do 
anything to change the underly- 
ing disease, at least it makes 

cont. pg. 29 

High Frontiers 9 

High Longevity 

In Conversation with 


Innovative gerontology is an 
active assault on the aging proc- 
ess. Getting to understand why 
animals and people age, getting 
to understand the physiological 
facts involved in creating the 
aging process, and then going in 
and doing something about it. We 
do know, from scientific litera- 
ture, that this can be done. It's 
been done in the past 


The most reliable way to al- 
ter the aging process in an ani- 
mal is to take a very young ro- 
dent and put it on a very re- 
stricted diet. This can be in ei- 
ther the amount of food it gets, 
or, in our laboratory, we re- 
strict them to very low levels of 
the amino acid tryptophane. If 
you restrict an animal in its 
calorie intake, or in the amount 
of essential amino acids, such as 
tryptophane, you can essentially 
arrest his maturation process to 
the point where you can nearly 
double the lifespan. 


In one study, male rats that 
normally died by 1056 days, lived 
to 1800 days. That's a dramatic 
70% increase of the maximum life- 
span. It would be similar to hav- 
ing a human, who would be dead 
by, say, 90, go on to live to 

I think that the most impor- 
tant thing which our latest stud- 
ies show is what happens if you 
have a population of rats, and 
you put them on a very severe di- 
et. The younger you start, and 
the more severe the diet, the 
more severe and drastic the ef- 
fect of the diet on the animals, 
the more pathology you're going 
to see, the sicker the animal is 
going to become, the more fre- 
quently they're going to die. But 
in the ones that make it, those 
animals live beyond the normal 
maximum lifespan. That's the par- 
adox. And it is a telling para- 
dox . 


My guess is that aging is 
programmed in the animal, just 
like maturation, puberty, and ev- 
ery other ontogenetic process, 
process which goes on in the hu- 
man life-cycle. In order to dis- 
associate aging in the animal, 
now, because we don't understand 
it, we have to intervene in a 
very drastic manner. When you do 
this, you run the risk of hurt- 
ing, killing, or injuring the 
animal. But if you have a large 
population of, say, 100 rats, and 
you treat them in this very dras- 
tic way, you might get 10 that 
will live twice as long as a rat 
normally lives. This suggests 
that aging is programmed geneti- 
cally, and by monkeying with it 
at a very basic level, you can 
disengage it from the physiology 
of the animal. So the animal can 
maintain its physiology but not 


One of the thin 
that the diets which 
vere, which give you 
dramatic anti-aging 
also the diets that 
alter the chemistry 
and the chemistry of 
cine system. We've 1 
of the neurotransmit 
in the brain. We've 
diets which are very 
the ones that cause 
transmitter balances 
most disturbed. This 
that if you go about 
your neurotransmitt e 
you're not going to 
suggests, to me, is 
very deeply, tightly 
into the biology of 
other mammals. So I 
most important thing 
vative gerontology i 
know how to halt the 
ess in animals. Now, 
find out, precisely, 
method works. 

gs we see is 
are very se- 
the most 
effect, are 
most strongly 
of the brain, 

the endro- 
ooked at some 
ter balances 
found that 

drastic are 
the neuro- 

to be the 

doesn ' t mean 

r balances , 
age . What it 
that aging is 

the human and 
think the 

now in Inno- 
s that we 

aging proc- 

we have to 

why this 


We've found that when we 
stop reproductive aging, we stop 
overall aging. For instance, one 
rat was able to reproduce to 33 
months of age. This rat went on 
to live to 48 months. The fact 
that increasing reproductive 
lifespan is also increasing maxi- 
mum lifespan is exciting. If you 
had a drug which increased repro- 
ductive lifespan, especially in 
the female, then you have good 
reason to believe that this is 
messing with the basic aging 
process. We can use that. If we 
took a new drug and exposed a 10 
month old female rat to that drug 
for a period of 8 months, or even 
6 months, put that rat on a nor- 
mal diet, mated her, and had that 
animal give birth at 18 months, 
we could use that reproductive 
ability as a screening mechanism. 
In fact, I could take a thousand 
drugs that I think are going to 
help retard aging, and give them, 
one at a time or in appropriate 
combinations, to a thousand cages 
holding 10 rats to a cage, a to- 
tal of 10,000 rats. I'd start 
them at 10 months of age, give 
them the drug till they're 16 
months. Then give them a month 
off the drug. Then let them mate. 
At 18 months, those rats should 

not be fertile. If one has a drug 
where you get 2 or 3 fertilities 
all in the same cage, that would 
be very interesting. We could, in 
that way, screen as many as a 
thousand, drugs for their anti-ag- 
ing potential. This kind of tech- 
nique is something that a large 
company, government, or founda- 
tion supported laboratory could 
do quite easily, without a tre- 
mendous budget. I could fit a 
thousand cages into a very small 
room, and actually test a thou- 
sand drugs for their anti-aging 
potential in 6 to 12 months, It 
would not take a large budget. I 
could do it myself on a $20,000 
to $30,000 budget. 


As Roy Walfor 
his book, Maximum 
really have to ext 
mum lifespan, if y 
about altering the 
Extending maximum 
index. If you had 
10 out of 100 huma 
200 years old, tha 
important, in unde 
ing , than a drug t 
100 people to live 
old. Good medicine 
people live to 100 
something extraord 
crease maximum lif 

d points out in 
Lifespan , you 
end the maxi- 
ou want to talk 
ag ing process . 
1 if espan is the 
a drug that got 
ns t o 1 ive to 
t would be more 
rstanding ag- 
hat got 90 out 
to 100 years 
can make more 
. It would take 
inary to in- 
espan . 


There needs to be a strong, 
empirical interventive approach. 
We need massive screening pro- 
grams for drugs that have anti- 
aging potential. People like Dirk 
Pearson are using themselves as 
guinea pigs, and they're taking a 
calculated risk. I applaud Dirk 
Pearson. But it's the fault of 
government and industry that peo- 
ple have to do this, because they 
refuse to support this kind of 
aging research on animals. If 
they would support this kind of 
research on animals, this would 
not be neccessary. The government 
does not want this done. They do 
not want it ! 


The most important of all 
life-extension sciences now, in 
my opinion, is suspended anima- 
tion. I think suspended animation 
is very feasible. There's lots of 
reasons to believe that people 
can be frozen, thawed-out and 


cont, pg. 19 

High Frontiers 10 


The Place of Dead Roads 
William S. Burroughs 
Holt, Rinehart and Winston 
Are you worried about the effects of the Green- 
house effect? Reaganomics got ya down? Does the 
prospect of an increasingly politically-visable 
Richard Nixon make the hairs stand up on the back 
of your neck? Relax. Do something worthwhile. 
Read William S. Burroughs' new novel. The Place of 
Dead Roads , and learn: 

How to conjure phantom sexual partners 
How to kill a nation by cutting-off its dreams 
That Christianity is actually a virus and 
How to dress as a woman and shoot 12 macho shits 
Yes, the consumate cosmic cut-up is back, with 
a story that is at once a western and High Sci-Fi 
story with tasty chunks of arcana sprinkled 
liberally throughout ( somewhat in the fashion of 
an Ortho Hand-held Lawn Seeder ) . Follow Kim Car- 
son ( gunfighter, surgeon, time-traveller ) as he 
fights the good fight from the Old West through 
time to the edges of distant galaxies and back 
again, pausing only momentarily to smooth out a few 
crinkled sphincters, if you get my subtle drift. 
Burroughs can stun, outrage, and mollify in one 
brief passage and does so with proud glee and the 
"wild dog smile." His particular brand of anarchy 
has you laughing and lamenting simultaneously, and 
it hurts if you take him literally. I consider him 
a very good humorist and a god ( detachment impos- 
sible ). 

The story begins with a gunfight in a Colorado 
cemetary and also ends there, but not until you've 
completed a tour of duty with the Wild Fruits, also 
known as the Johnsons, a group of dedicated citi- 
zens intent on eradicating all the "shits" from the 
face of the earth. ( Shits are people who have to 
be right all of the time. ) In this quest, they are 
challenged by the Mafia, the Brittish, and homo- 
phobes . There's a very tasteful cloning episode and 
a touching scene on a Mayan alter with two naked 
boys, but I digress. Burroughs' philosophy has 
sharpened and his images and metaphor are pared 
down to the shiny bone. I sense a new urgency in 
his admonitions of the stupid, the bigots, and the 
manipulators, and he once again calls for an end to 
punishment of victimless crimes. He has some really 
sweet things to say about God, ( Who but an asshole 
wants to see people grovelling in front of him? ) 
and the British class system. ( " They'll never 
get that ballast of unearned privilege into - 
space... they get out of a spaceship and start 
looking about desperately for inferiors." ) And, as 
in his previous works, Burroughs opens the doors to 
the craphouse. invites you in, and then leaves you 
there to clean up the mess. He brings into focus 
all that is very wrong in American Society with 
hellish clarity and unparalleled style, then splits 
for another galaxy. We are left to digest the info 
and decide to act or not. It's easy to ignore these 
little reminders that many basic things are terrib- 
ly wrong. But at least, now you know. Mark F rost 
Prometheus Rising 
Robert Anton Wilson 
Falcon Press 
Prometheus Rising is an entertaining account of 
the history of human consciousness, as well as a spec- 
ulation of its future. Offering a perspective on human 
psychology, Prometheus Rising gives hints and exerci- 
ses for developing one's own consciousness. 

Wilson unites such seemingly disparate concepts 
as the psychology of Freud and Jung, the theories of 
Gurdjieff and Leary, Crowley's sex magick, and modern 
day quantum theory. And that's only the beginning. 

Prometheus Rising is a culmination of Robert An- 
ton Wilson's search to find out " what the hell is 
really going on." A search which has provided us with 
such literary milestones as the farcical Illuminatus , 
written with Robert Shea, Cosmic Trigger , the first 
of his books to deal explicitly with his quest for an 
understanding of consciousness, and Masks of the II- 
luminati , the book that posits the 1914 chance meet- 
ing between James Joyce and Albert Einstein. 

The over all structure of the book is a trip 
through the eight circuits of human consciousness. The 
eight circuits are divided in half. The first four be- 
those which we are all fairly familiar with; the oral 
bio-survival, the anal-emotional-territorial, the 
time-binding semantic ( rationalism ), and the moral- 
socio-sexual. Wilson speculates that 50% of the popu- 
lace of the human race has not mastered the time- 
binding semantic circuit. Twenty percent are living in 
the third or fourth circuit. These are the "responsi- 
ble, intelligent adults." The latter half of the oc- 
tave is more difficult to grasp intellectually because 
we are looking at it as it is unfolding. According to 
Wilson, the fifth circuit, which is comprised of 20% 
of the population, is the wholistic-neurosomatic cir- 
cuit, the circuit of feeling good. The evolutionary 
agents, 5% of the population, make up the sixth or se- 
lective neurogenetic circuit. The 3% who are the meta- 
programmers make up the seventh circuit. This is G.I. 
Gurdjieff 's conscious circle of humanity. The final 
2%, who are beyond space-time categories, reside in 
the non-local quantum circuit. As awesome as the pre- 
sentation of these evolutionary circuits is, Wilson 
has a trick in his hat which raises Prometheus Rising 
above the level of the standard intellectual wishbook. 
He accomplishes this with the inclusion of sets of ex- 
ercises designed to complement the intellectual con- 
tent of each chapter. To quote Wilson: " The reader 
will absolutely NOT understand this book, unless he or 
she does the exercises at the end of each chapter." 
Robert Anton Wilson's Prometheus Rising presents an 
extremely optimistic view of the future. Some would 
say this view is too rosy, but as Barbara Marx Hubbard 
says: " The future exists first in imagination. Then 
in will. Then in reality." 

Alex Cain and Jane Wolfe 

^mm ^M g ,. rf Hi 8 h Frontiers 11 

A Galactic Tapping in 
to J§ Information Field 

^W High Frontiers Talks with Terence McKenna A 

The following interview 
with Terence McKenna was per- 
formed by Ken Goffman and 
Charles Ferris for High Fron- 
tiers. We thought it was worth 
printing both of these inter- 
views with McKenna, and we're 
sure you'll see why. 

hf) You seem to involve yourself par- 
ticularly with the tryptomine group of 
psychedelics, and differentiate them in 
experience and value from the others. 
Generally, why is that? 

tm) Well, because I think the exper- 
ience of the tryptomine hallucinogen is 
qualitatively different from any other 
hallucinogen. It exceeds the model of 
Jungian-Freudian psychology by quite a 
bit. The tryptomine hallucinogens don't 
seem to convey you into a part of the 
human psyche, personal or collective. 
It's more like they convey you into a 
parallel universe or an alternative 
dimension that has a reality outside of 
the human psyche. 

hf) ...and one tends to receive a kind 
of message from this dimension 9 

tm> Right. The other aspect of it is 
that on those drugs there seems to be a 
tendency..., well... it's much more ani- 
mate. There's felt to b* an intelligent 
presence that you can interact with and 
dialogue with, which is very rarely 
reported on drugs like LSD, for example. 
That just isn't part of the mythology of 
LSD, but it's very present in these 
tryptomine hallucinogens. 

hf> Some of these conversations with 
the other intelligences take place in 
human language, and some of them are in 
some sort of a 'beyond' language. Is 
that so? 

tm) Uell, yes. When it's not in English 
I don't call it a conversation because I 
can't understand it. There are lin- 
guistic. could call them linguistic 
hallucinations or syntactical abstrac- 
tions which have no meaning, but which 
have syntax and structure. The messages, 
or the channel ings, are simply insights 
from a point of view not that of the 
ego, but they come into the mind with 
great clarity and diction. They're like 
listening to yourself think, except it 
isn't yourself thinking. 

hf> Do you find beyond-verbal or post- 
verbal communications useful? Is there 

anything you take away from these? 

tm) From the ones that are not English? 

hf) Yes. 

Uhat kind of information is 

tm) Uell, it's a kind of an ecstacy to 
speak in this glossalana, because when 
you're doing it, the meaning is per- 
ceived intuitively or emotionally --- 
directly. In other woras, you can't 
translate the psychedelic language into 
English, but vou can translate it into 
feel mg-tone-complexes that move you. So 
it's a very emotional experience to do 
this or to hear it. It's not an 
emotional content that can be 
transcribed into English. It's kind of 
an emotional music, if you will . 

hf) Do you think that in terras of the 
tryptomines, DrfT for instance, most 
people who would do this sort of thing 
would find that they're receiving some 
sort of alien information; or might that 
have something to do with your partic- 
ular personality 9 

tm) No, I think that if people do 
enough, they will come into this place. 
The problem with these tryptomine hallu- 
cinogens is that most people just ex- 
plore the area right over the threshold 
of activity, and think that that's all 
it is: this amphetamine-like lift, flat 
geometric visual hallucinations, accel- 
erated thought processes. Those are the 
things which happen on a light dose of 
these compounds. 

On an effective dose, you get these 
hyper-dimensional hallucinations that 
are more like sculptured geometric pat- 
terns that can be viewed from all an- 
gles. You get the sense of the contact 
with an hierarchy of organized intelli- 
gence. You get these extremely pristine 
hallucinations of machinery in deep 
space, alien architectures, bizarre 
planetary eco-systems, just a very gal- 
actic kind of tapping-in to the informa- 
tion field. 

But that is not happening unless 
people take committed doses, and when I 
talk to the people, invariably what they 

think about these drugs depends on at 
what level they've experienced them. 
Many people have taken mushrooms repeat- 
edly at low doses, and have never come 
anywhere close to these places. But it's 
because they're so very, very cautious, 
you know. 

hf) That's true. I remember as a teen- 
ager we used to think of psilocvbm as 
the light drug, you know, for giggles 
and fun. 

tm) Lighter than LSD, right. Well, I 
spoke to Albert Hofmann, the inventor of 
LSD, when we were at a conference in 
Santa Barbara this spring, He also cate- 
gorized psilocybin; so, in a sense, he 
is its discoverer, too, And 1 said, 
'Which do you prefer, and what do you 
think of them 9 ' 

He said he preferred LSD because he 
did not like the animate quality of 
psilocybin. Uhen 1 questioned him more 
closely, what he meant was, 'There's 
somebody in there." There's potential 
for a dialogue that is unsettling; that 
violates the normal model that con- 
sciousness expansion just means psycho- 
logical insight, recovery of memories, 
appreciation of nature and art. It means 
all those things, but on the next level 
it means what shamans have always known 
it meant, which is communication with 
invisible beings who have power in un- 
seen, invisible worlds that are nearby. 

hf) The kind of thing that you've visu- 
alized, like machinery and space civili- 
zations, could that be a memory of the 
future or is it some kind of outside... 9 

tm) No, it could be a memory of the 
future. It could be anything. I think 
that the real problem that these psyche- 

High Frontiers 12 

delics pose is an explanation of their 
content. Why do we see enormous alien 
machines in orbit around the planet? Of 
all the things you could see, why that? 
And 1 think that space notif is -fairly 
persistent with psilocybin over a large 
spectrum of peoples' experience. 

The UFO is, sort of, the central 
mystery symbol of the psilocybin exper- 
ience, because the psilocybin experience 
blends imperceptively into the UFO- 
contact experience if the doses are high 
enough. Now that's a fairly radical 
claim. These two fringe concerns, UFO's 
and psychedelic drugs, have never really 
been connected in the public mind, prob- 
ably because linking a taboo to a pariah 
is not good sociological strategy. 
Nevertheless, experientially, they are 
definitely linked, and it is almost as 
though the UFO experience is a psyche- 
delic experience induced by something 
other than the direct ingestion of a 
chemical agent. It's breaking through 
from the collective psyche, a totality- 
symbol organized around the idea of the 
hyper-dimensional rotating vehicle, 
which is linked to earlier images of the 
soul, earlier images of angelic flight 
and that sort of thing. In its modern 
expression it's the UFO, which looks 
like a mushroom, strangely enough. These 
are like visual and topological puns. 

hf) Uhat kind of dosages are you 
talking about when you say...? 

tm) Five dried grams for a 148 lb per- 
son to experience these more intense and 
particularly psilocybin-induced things. 
See, 1 think if you're going to bother 
to take a hallucinogen, you should take 
it at a sufficient amount that you can 
tell it from any other hallucinogen. And 
if you take it at a low dose, you can't 
tell mescaline from LSD from psilocybin 
from MDA. At a very low dose, you're 
just sort of buzzed. But as you pile it 
on, then the special characteristics of 
each one begin to become apparent. 

hf) The people whom you met in the 
frnazon where you experienced ayahuasca, 
which is also a tryptomine... 

tm) That's a tryptomine-base drug, 
where DMT is combined with amonoamme 
oxidates inhibiting beta-carboline, so 
that a very small amount of DMT becomes 
intensely active in combination with 
this other drug. Mushrooms, DMT, 
ayahuasca these are all chemical strate- 
gies for arriving at a certain state of 
synaptic saturation. It seems like they 
all lead into the same place, this tryp- 
tomine psychedelic state which is an 
intensely alien, brightly colored, 
three-diraensionally realized, inhabited 
space where this communication is emana- 
ting from. Those tryptomines are the 
drugs that lead into that. Others don't, 
in my experience. 

hf) You mentioned in a side conversa- 
tion that your brother is writing a book 
that the jump from monkeyhood to 
humanity was psychedelic-induced? 

tm) Yes. It's been a long struggle to 
get the psychedelics in perspective in 
relation to human culture. You know, 
Uasson suggested that religion was the 
result of primitive humans discovering 
that certain plants seemed to have gods 
inside of them which, when you ate these 
plants, you could tame the god. And this 
was the whole basis for religion. 

Ny brother went further and wants 
to suggest that it was the experience of 
these drugs from randomly foraging in 
the environment for food that actually 
became a selective pressure for the 
evolution of consciousness; and in that 
sense, man was created by the psyche- 
delic plants. It was the interaction of 
highly developed monkeys with psyche- 
delic plants and the reinforcement of 
the consciousness-expanding effects of 
the plant that created the vast reper- 
toire of mental abilities of human 
beings, which is the basic way in which 
we differ from the animals. 

Of course language is one of these, 
and it's very interesting that these 
tryptomine drugs work so directly on the 
language-forming center, almost as 
though they could' have been the catalyst 
for language, for the connection of 
meaning to mouth-noises of various 
sorts, which then laid the basis for 
everything: for myth, for poetry, for 
history, for science, for the whole 
human experience. 

hf) I was glancing through a book by 

Br ion 6ysin dkne. ia fip. : Eianti RJii 1 . 
which also has some of Uillian Bur- 
roughs' writing in it, and 1 came 
across something Burroughs said, which 
is... if we erase the Uord, that would 
lead to the exteriorization of the body. 
And then I saw a quote which I had 
copied down from you, which said that 
"the future is leading toward the 
inter i or izat ion of the body and the 
exteriorization to the soul.' So I'm 
thinking, 'These guys are talking about 
two different things, or interpreting 
the words differently.' Uhat do you 
mean, and do you care to speculate on 
what he might mean? 

tm) Well, I'm not sure what he means. 
Uhat 1 mean is that through electronic 
circuitry and the building of a global 
information-system, we are essentially 
exteriorizing our nervous system, so 
that it is becoming a patina or a skin 
around the planet. And when you tele- 
phone people, and when you watch TV, 
when you do all these things, you're 
essentially projecting your conscious- 
ness over great distances. And as tech- 
nology becomes more miniaturized, less 
physically and spatially obtrusive, we 
are going to naturally lose the distinc- 
tion between the body- image, and the 
technical projection of the body- image, 
which is all this information transfer 

1 think eventually there will come 
into being a kind of globalized state of 
ir.forraational oneness which will be 
experientially available as an alterna- 

tive to ordinary ego-consciousness. In 
other words, people will have the option 
of experiencing a true mass-mind, a 
global mass-mind. And phenomena like 
group drug-taking and rock-and-roll con- 
certs and this sort of thing... these are 
simply cultural anticipations of this 
coming age of electronic-pool ing-of- 
i dent i ty which will become a viable 
alternative. It's an extension of the 
sexual revolution, the information revo- 
lution, all of these things. Uhen it's 
finally realized we will live in the 
human imagination. The human imagination 
will have been erected in a dimension of 
electronic circuitry. 

That's what I mean by inter torizing 
the body and exteriorizing the mind, 
turning it around so the body is thought 
of as the locus of being, the way we now 
think of the mind as the ground of 
being. But the vehicle of being will no 
longer be the body. It will be the mind 
and the imagination. Switching these two 
roles from base to vehicle will com- 
pletely change mans' conception of him- 
self and the space which he inhabits. 

hf) When we reach that point where we 
do exist in a world of exteriorized soul 
and of imagination... you've referred to 
that as end-time. 

tm) It's the time beyond history yes. 
It's the time when a kind of informa- 
tional eschatology comes into being. And 
the striving which history represents, 
which is the striving to exteriorize the 
soul, will fall away and be replaced by 
a kind of nunc stans, a standing eter- 
nity. My time theory is a part of that 
phenomenon because it's a predictive 
theory of temporal variables that, if it 
were to be established to be correct, or 
usably correct, would have the effect 
of, in a sense, eliminating the future, 
in the way that a map eliminates the 
unknowability of the South American 
continent. If you have a map of it, it 
doesn't make it uninteresting to go 
there. It just gives you an idea of what 
you're going to see when you get there. 

hf) Do you think most of us will still 
be living on this planet at that time? 

tm) Oh, yes. 1 think it's a statistical 
thing. Some people are on the brink of 
it right now. I think every time you 
take a psychedelic drug you are antici- 
pating and experiencing this future 
state of electronic and pharmacological 
connectedness. This is why it's impor- 
tant for everyone to try to be as 
contemporary as possible, because it is 
the leading edge of culture that will 
contact this thing first. For some peo- 
ple it could happen soon. For others, it 
may take well into the next century. But 
I'm saying that, by around 2812 A.D., so 
much of the society will be at home with 
these concepts that it will become a 
cultural inevitability, through its own 
momentum, you see. 

hf) It seems that on psychedelics, 

High Frontiers 13 

particularly on LSD, you can perceive 
nodern culture as a whole, as a pattern, 
rather than as a confusing jumble of 
fragments; and there is something to be 
said for, sometimes, taking LSD with the 
TV on or with the radio on. In that you 
really come to understand how delightful 
the whole NcCluhanistic... 

tm) ...universe is. Yes, well. ..I say 
to people in my public lectures that 
NcCluhan should be looked at again. 
Enough time has passed. Now, let's go 
back and look again. He was hailed as a 
messiah and denounced as a charlatan. 
Well, obviously, he was neither one of 
these things. But he did have some very 
interesting. ..his method of analyzing 
the effect of media on the mass mind is 
very close to my own approach. 

hf> A lot of people feel a great deal 
of fear about this idea that we live in 
a relativistic universe, and that an 
individual creates her own reality. I 
guess that what they fear is that the 
old values are dissolving, and nothing 
will — it'll be moral relativism; and, 
somehow, this will dissolve us into more 
chaotic violence and a lack of 

tm) Well, these drugs, these psyche- 
delic drugs, decondition you from the 
prevailing myth of whatever culture 
you're in. That is a political act, to 
decondition yourself from a cultural 
mythology, and political acts are close- 
ly watched and controlled because they 
have consequences. The people at the top 
of the pyramid reserve the right to 
control political acts. This is the real 
controversy about psychedelic drugs. 
It's not whether one in 59,880 people 
steps out of a second floor window. 

No, the issue is what happens to 
the other 50,888 people. How their atti- 
tudes toward authority, their own lives, 
and their ability to take control of 
their own lives, are subtly altered. 
It's a tremendous force for anti- 
fascism, I think. 

hf> Have you found anything in modern 
physics that corresponds to your ideas 
about time? 

tm> No. Not very much. I think that 
modern physics is concerned with the 
description of the behavior of matter 
and its momentum, its charge, its veloc- 
ity, its spin, all these things. What 
I'm concerned with is an operational 
description of time. Since time is not, 
by orthodox physics, or by me, thought 
to be a physical quantity, it doesn't 
really relate much to the edifice of 
modern physics. 

It's sort of a parallel edifice. 
They explain the interactions of matter 
that are not temporally dependent. And I 
propose the theory, which is a theory of 
time, which deals with those processes 
which do display temporal variance, 
which is everything that's interesting. 
Physics can only describe events which 
always happen the same way, given the 

initial conditions are the same. Yet, in 
life and love and politics, given an 
initial set of conditions, processes can 
develop in many directions. Those are 
the kind of processes that my time 
theory would seek to give an account of. 

hf> In Sarfatti and Uolf's Space, Time, 
aM Beyond , they deal with time a lot 
from the perspective of physics; partic- 
ularly that time is related to the speed 
of light. Sarfatti deals a lot with time 
because the speed of light is tied in 
with time - that's how we measure time. 
He deals with how time works as you 
speed up. The faster you're going, the 
slower time goes. And, theoretically, 
it's possible for information to travel 
faster than time, which would mean that 
you can deal with the future and with 
the past. So he seems to take time very 
seriously. And there are some other 
people... who are into some of the more 
bizarre aspects of quantum mechanics. 

tm) Bell's theorem. The problem with 
Bell's theorem is that it is, first of 
all, very controversial; second of all, 
highly mathematical; and third of all, 
it's not clear that English can cor- 
rectly portray what the theorem is 
actually saying. When you hear physi- 
cists talk about Bell's theorem, they 
can differ totally in whether it means 
that information can move faster than 
light. It's very problematic. 

The thing about light that's inter- 
esting is, if you try to imagine how the 
universe would appear if you were made 
of light, you would not have this 
slowing-down and speeding-up of time. 
There would be no such thing as time. If 
you were made of photons and you decided 
to go to Alpha Centaur i, it would take 
you about four-and-a-half years from the 
point of view of the observer. From your 
own experience it would be instant. You 
would just be there, because at the 
speed of light, time disappears. It 
fades from the equation, you know. 

So, I think it's more interesting 
trying to model a timeless universe. And 
part of my theory says that the present 
is a kind of interference pattern caused 
by the flow of time backward, meeting 
the flow of time forward. And so, the 
present is like an interference pattern, 
where these two wave-systems collide and 
form a pattern, which is then itself a 
moving wave front through the medium. I 
think it's clear that there are forms 
of causality that run from the past 
into the future, and forms of causality 
that are in the future, directing the 
evolution of advance toward them in the 
past. So I'd run it both ways to keep it 

hf) Uhen you spoke at Shared Visions on 
•Psychedelic Time', toward the end of 
the lecture, you got into something 
about science as opposed to magic or 
shamanism or alchemy. You sort of placed 
magic or alchemy as somewhere beyond the 
reach of science, and I thought of that 
quote from Arthur C. Clarke, that a 

sufficiently advanced technology... 
tm) ...appears to be magic. 

hf) Yes. indistinguishable from 
magic. Do you agree with that idea' 

tm) Oh, yeah. I definitely agree with 
him, and not only... Well, advanced is a 
sort of linear word, but just a suffi- 
ciently different technology will appear 
as magic. You meet shamanic technologies 
in the Amazon, where people are com- 
bining plants, drugs, diet, and exer- 
cise; and it's clearly a technology. But 
it looks like magic, because they're 
able to divine, and predict weather, and 
find lost objects and that sort of 
thing. But science is simply a self- 
consistent method of describing the 
world, and there are several such self- 
consistent methods. Astrology is another 
one. Voodoo is another one. 

Science has, for some reason, 
claimed episteraological primacy, as 
though it should arbitrate between all 
competing systems and decide what is 
true and not true. This is just the 
priestcraft of science. It is no more in 
touch with the bedrock of truth than any 
of these other things, and it is a cul- 
tural invention. We're not discovering 
certain universal truths in science. 
We're just elaborating a cultural 
mythology, no different from the 
funerary mythologies of ancient Egypt, 
or the shamanic mythologies of Siberia, 
you know. And science is a matter of 
fashion, too, very, very much. 

hf) Thafs true, but it seems like 
science is finding its way towards con- 
clusions similar to raagickal or shamanic 
traditions, and it seems that, in a way, 
it serves us well to maintain this 
priestcraft, to maintain the importance 
of science so that it can lead western 
culture into this new focus. 

tm) Oh, yes. I think science is trans- 
forming. Science begins with the easy 
questions and works slowly up to the 
hard ones. So we've almost reached some 
interesting questions, you know. We're 
almost on the brink of asking some very 
interesting questions, like how does the 
brain relate to the mind? How does the 
mind relate to the world? What is 
memory? How is that possible? What is 
language? These are very modern ques- 
tions, you know, and interesting. But we 
had to do the shit-work over the past 
five or six hundred years to get to this 
place, develop the mathematical, analyt- 
ical, and technological tools for 
dealing with that kind of thing. 

hf) You've spoken about voices that you 
get during visionary experiences, and 
some of them are not genuine voices, 
they are voices there to deceive and... 

tm) Well, I think you deal with voices 
in the head the way you deal with anyone 
anywhere. You have to realize, the uni- 
verse is swarming with intelligences, 




High Frontiers 14 
all with their own purposes, drives, and 
desires. You just have to determine who 
are allies and who are resisting what 
you want to have happen. And then much 
of it is irrelevant to you. 

hf> How do you personally validate the 

tm) They must be humane and they must 
be reasonable and they nust be life- 
aff inning. 

hf> One other thing 1 had wanted to ask 
you about is your preference of plant 
psychede'ics over laboratory chemicals, 
and at one point you actually referred 
to chemicals as coming from the demons 
of the laboratory. 1 was a little bit 
surprised at that, coming from somebody 
who 1 know to be comfortable with the 
idea of, high-orbital space 

tm) Well, I didn't say... what I said 
was - and 1 always use this same phrase 
- i said they «ere 'the product of the 
demon artificers of the laboratory." I 
think of the demon artificer as Festus 
in Hue. llyad f *he guy who pounds the 
shield of Achilles, who makes the 
shield. The demon artificer is the per- 
son who makes objects with the help of a 
god. Then these objects are nagickal 
objects. That's what I really meant when 
I referred to these chemists as demon 
artificers. They make the drugs, and 
that is a true magician. It isn't the 

person who TAKES then who is the magi- 
cian, it's the person who MAKES then who 
is the nagician. Ny prejudice against 
the laboratory drugs is one based on 
experience of the consciousness of the 
plant drugs, their humaneness, their 
ethical sensitivity, and the depth of 
the infomation they can convey. And 


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then there's the abuse problen that I 
see with so nany synthetic drugs. 

You know, a shaman is like a yogin. 
His life is very reginented and ordered 
and constrained by taboo, exercise, 
diet, and the social perceptions of his 
group. He has to be an exenplary person. 
And this pressure isn't on people who 
use synthetic drugs. They just use then 
to push their ninds around to get up in 
the norning, to go to sleep at night, to 
work hard, to play hard. All this is 
happening at an entirely different level 
than these plant hallucinogens, which 
are essentially for religious purposes 
in the best sense of religion — in the 
sense of a return to the source of 
huraanness, the thing which sets us apart 
from the rest of nature. They enhance 
hunanness. They expand consciousness. 
And if the expansion of consciousness is 
not an inportant factor in the future 
evolution of mankind, then it's very 
frightening to inagine where we nust be 
headed. I often say in ny public 
lectures that the real question that 
confronts the 20th century is, 'Uhat 
raushroon is it that blooms at the end of 
history?" The mushroom of Teller and 
Femi and Oppenheiraer; or is it the 
mushroom of Wasson and Hofmann? This is 
the choice, extinction or transforma- 
tion, and the cultural momentum is so 
great, that there is no other option. 
Extinction or transformation, what'll 
you have, gentlemen? 

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High Frontiers 15 

Multiple Media 


Malcolm McCluhan and Marshall McClaren 

When High Frontiers asked us to 
review most of the other newsprint 
tabloids in the bay area, we serious- 
ly questioned the editor's sanity. It 
seemed to us somehow arrogant, tacky, 
and downright dangerous to criticise 
your sister publications on your 
first time out. 

Which is why we took the assign- 
ment. I suppose that's why we were 
asked. Bad choice. We're the wrong 
crowd. We like to make fun. We're re- 
ally asking for it. So here goes... 


This paper is loaded down with 
snot from a to b and back again. Any- 
body with a new idea, some hope, or 
who happens to like cappucino and 
croissants can expect to be subjected 
to a stream of caustic, colorfully- 
worded, off-handed and, quite frank- 
ly, ill-informed put-downs. 

Naturally, we kinda like it. At 
least it's colorful enough to make us 
mad, not like that bland Bay Guardi- 
an. Also, Norman Dog is great! And 
the free personals on the back pages 
bring out little tidbits of Berkeley 
eccentricity at its best. We should 
give this paper a B but we downgraded 
it half-a-step for having lots of 
stuff in it which we disagree with. 
We're sure they'd do the same. 


Bland! Predictable left-liberal 
politics attatched to predictable re- 
views and unimaginative features. 
This sort-of reminds us of The Vil- 
lage Voice in its general point-of- 
view, except The Village Voice has 
-many undeniably good writers, Lucy 
Lippard, Cockburn and Ridgeway, and 
J. Hoberman stand out as examples. 
We've upgraded the Bay Gaurdian half- 
a-step because we happen to agree 
passionately with left-liberals on 
approximately 75% of the issues, and 
we're sure the intention is good. 


Somehow, this doesn't anger or 
disappoint us each week, as does the 
East Bay Express and the Bay Guardi- 
an. It must be a case of lower expec- 
tations, o_f exp ecti ng something 
light, friendly, and liberal out of 
Marin, and accepting it as such- Up- 
graded half-a-step for strongly de- 
crying the monoculturalization of 


We've seen 3 issues so far, 2 of 
which were great. You can read this 
for reviews of industrial and other 
extreme music which you have very 
little chance of actually hearing, 
unless you actively seek it out (which 
if you don't do already, you definite- 
ly should) . You also get intelligent 
interviews with the likes of John 
Cage, Steve Reich and Peter Gordon. In 
the last issue, they even had a tran- 
scription of a lecture on psychoactive 
substances, given by Ralph Metzner! 
This is a paper worth going out of 
your way to find. 


This punk paper from Bezerkeley 
has a strong, humanistic heart beating 
just beneath its twisted-image sur- 
face. Really. The East Bay Express 
could take some lessons. Articles 
about street people as human beings, 
or features about San Francisco's he- 
roic bicycle messengers as same, 
streetwise and heartfelt, speak well 
for the flowers in the dustbin of the 
corporate state. 


This updated version of a "new 
left" counterculture paper possibly 
deserves our support. But it's such a 
total downer. Really. This has such a 
depressing tone to it, I don't know 
how they ever expect to inspire any- 
one to spend 50 cents, never mind re- 
volution. Editor John Bryant apparent- 
ly can't see an inch past his face as 
regards technology and science. Since 
bad guys use it, it must be bad stuff. 

What's good about this paper is 
much of the culturally-oriented "Open 
City" section. Here, we find a mix of 
personal, experiential story-telling, 
reviews, political commentary, satire, 
and outrage, all of it coming from a 
street-level, left-anarchist perspec- 
tive. We wish we could say that we 
were thrilled by contributions from 
the likes of Harold Norse and Laurence 
Ferlinghetti, but apparently the 
beat's been going on a little bit too 
long. We upgraded this half-a-step be- 
cause editor John Bryant is such a ve- 
hement critic of our friend, Tim 
Leary, that we didn't want to feel 
that we were downgrading his paper for 
the same reason. 


A wierd little paper by a wlerd lit- 
tle tribe with wierd little names. I sup- 
pose your wondering, then, why we don't 
like this paper. Well, something about 
the way they present their peculiar psy- 
chological tunnel-reality presses our 
mindfucker-avoidance buttons. Downgraded 
a step-and-a-half for getting sucked into 
cold-war myopia. If you don't know al- 
ready, these people support Reagan's mil- 
itaristic escapades. Hey, folks. The tor- 
ture and slaughter of entire families in 
El Salvador and Guatemala is a pretty 
wierd form of gestalt-o-rama, if you get 
our drift. Painless punk, my -ss. 


Our self-conscious crap. Bad poetics 
linked to Ayn Randish diatribes. The cou- 
ple who publishes this spends too much 
verbal effort arguing their case, which 
is basically that they have the right to 
be individual, creative artists, without 
fitting into the liberal/socialist moral- 
ity system which dominates much of the 
bay area art and print media, and that 
they have the right to get rich by their 


Carol fCeaaina / 
CUAtam/,C« 946/8 652~ZO*f 

efforts as such. Listen. As anarchists, 
upwingers, and mutant- individualists, we 
agree. But maybe you better cool back 
just a bit, because in a pure Darwinian 
media jungle, you schmucks are goners! 

ReSEARCH - Grade: A 

We're not sure if this will ever re- 
turn to tabloid form, but we wanted to 
talk about this, anyhow. This appeared 
first as an excellent punk interview pa- 
per called Search and Destroy in 1977, 
when the energy of that scene was still 
pretty revolutionary. It ran some well- 
written and informative articles on such 
themes as anarchism, surrealism, and 
black humor. Dropped out as punk became 
predictable, and re-emerged as Research, 
a paper dedicated to "survival informa- 
tion." This included lots of interviews 
with, and articles about, peoples of 
all cultures and sub-cultures, including 
our own, seemingly, in search of some 
kind of wisdom, or information, to help 
us survive the coming wierd times. All of 
it made for some great reading. 

We're not terribly hot on the last 2 
book-sized issues, however. The first 
one, a special issue devoted to William 
Burroughs, dwelt excessively on terror 
and other morbid subject matter, appar- 
ently, the obsession of the interviewers, 
but just one of the areas explored by the 

cont. pj 


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High Frontiers 18 

Mark Frost 

Barbara Hubbard, A Visionary 

Campaign for a Positive Future 

When Eisenhower was president, Bar- 
bara Marx Hubbard asked him, " Just 
what is the purpose of all this power?" 
Ike replied, " To maintain what is, " 

Now, in election year 1984, Hubbard 
is campaigning for the Democratic Party 
vice-presidential nomination. Her an- 
swer to the question seems to be " To 
envision what could be and make it hap^ 
pen. " And that's just what she is ask- 
ing us to do. She is now touring the 
country, consolidating support among 
the "Creative Majority" of forward- 
looking, self-actualizing Americans, 
people who have been apolitical in past 
years simply because they found no can- 
didate who shared their views. 

By forming Positive Future Centers 
throughout the country, Hubbard encour- 
ages citizens to " Think globally and 
act locally," concentrate on "what 
works" and institute those methods on a 
community level. The centers are also 
registering voters and raising funds 
for the campaign. Local delegates to 
the Democratic Comvention will be in- 
vited to the centers to witness and 
participate in the creation of a Design 
for a Positive Future that will be tak- 
en to the convention on July 16, 1984. 
Should Hubbard garner the delegate sup- 
port neccessary to win the nomination, 
she would seek to expand the office of 
the vice-presidency. Hubbard would es- 
tablish an Office of the Future, which 
would focus on long-range goals and 
strategies, and enlist the aid of crea- 
tors, innovators, legislators and citi- 
zens from all backgrounds to institute 
positive "win-win" solutions to nation- 
al and global problems. 

By amplifying what people can do on 
a community level to the national lev- 
el, by reaffirming self-help, decen- 
tralization, and co-operation and by 
"Being the change" one wants to see, 
Hubbard believes we can pull out of the 
morbid "lose-lose" scenario that has 
been unfolding for so many years. 

Hubbard's candidacy seems to speak 
to the vast numbers of disenchanted 
idealists of the 60s' and 70s' (I'm 


one) who thought we were entering a new 
age of abundance, equality for all, 
truly responsive government and all 
that. When the new age failed to ar- 
rive, many of us retreated into our- 
selves and put our energies into self- 
realization, spritual trips, and the 
rest of the "me-me" mind-set. 

Hubbard believes that disenchant- 
ment is a healthy sign; a natural re- 
sponse to an unresponsive government. 
She believes that the "breakdowns" we 
see in our culture are the result of 
using old solutions to deal with new 
problems. Social and technological 
change has accelerated so dramatically 
in such a short time, that we feel in 

instant answer. . . 
immediate proof! 

constant peril and helpless to do any- 
thing about it. When we see our break- 
downs in a new political light; that 
is, a vision of a positive future, in- 
stead of probable annihilation; we 
gain the power to make breakthroughs . 
We must take individual, personal re- 
sponsibility for creating a more hu- 
mane, loving, and creative future for 
everyone. And that's the way it could 

See the next issue of High Fron- 
tiers for an in-depth interview with 
Barbara Marx Hubbard. 


3 Designs Available; Sm. Med., Lrg., X-Lrg 
A. Let's Get Meta-Physica l 

Womens: Jade, Burgundy 
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Plus Postage & Handl. 
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payable to: 


P. 0. Box 59081 H 

SiuCi-Jr* San Jose, CA 95159-9081 


Roll-four-Own Religion by Computer 5 

bv John S. Janes, 1/84 

Origins, a movement for personal 
and social change, started on a 
'computer conference 1 ;n Santa Cruz, CA 
- a 24-hour -a-dav electronic 'meeting'' 
open to all by telephone from anywhere. 
Born in a computer discussion called 
■Start-fl-Religicn", Origins later became 
a faee-to-face movement of over 56 

It's focus: practical methods for 
personal survival and community 
building, <n the face of widespread 
human degradation and lack of real 
options for action now. Origins is a 
research-and-development community for 
creating training and action 'c-rr.s 
'.called 'practices'!; these turn 
anything we are doing into exercises to 
build skills for personal success. All 
Origins practices are based on human 
universal s '.such as cooperation and 
mutual aid); they use ahateuer props or 
settings the environment provides, but 
neuer need spec, a! objects or status 
such as money, education, literacy, or 
political freedom. '.Example of a 
"practice": ask for help and gel it.< 

Origins is designed for survival 
even in hostile environments such as 
prison, It wor-Kswith numan universal*, 
cultivating what happens an/way, using 
nothing uihich could be taken away. All 
•he practices ;an be open o r completer 
secret, depending on circumstances. Yet 
Origins has no secrets. 

The goal is to "bootstrap* creation 
of decentral i zee fanrW, a" 

international community developing 
euervday methods for building our own 
personal competence and success while 
also working for a better uorlc - 
through the same, integrated actions. 

Origins refuses to exist as an 
organization or a religion: those cay id 
be corrupted or taken over, but Origins 
has spawned othe r things, *rom soc,s ! 
outings to computer and business 
organizations ^such as the Computers tor 
Peace p roject, which is developing a 
book on how peace groups ca^ cse 
computers effectively). Origins has 
a'-ready printed a 180-page collection of 
the written messages through which i.t 

deve .oped. 

The movement is now quiescent, 
avoiding outreach until its next 
direction becomes clear. The big 
challenge now: how can a rational, 
instrumental-style movement tap the 
deeper energies and commitments of most 


You can get more information 
through the computer (488-475-7101, 388- 
baud modem, open to all >, or by sending 
a S.A.S.E. to: Origins, P.O. Box 486, 
Santa Cruz, CA 95061. Ue are avoiding 
organized activities at this rime. To 
participate >n Origins >ou must take 
,-nitiative to help c-eate it. 


Psychedelic Scenarios 

As the first manifestation of 
this newspaper indicates, informa- 
tion about psychedelic substances 
- as well as actual usage - is un- 
dergoing a new stage of expansion. 
When Peter, the senior member of 
this journalistic team, first took 
psychedelics, in 1962, Robert De- 
Rope ' s Drugs and the Mind and Al- 
dous Huxley's Doors of Perception 
were the only books in the field 
widely available. He remembers 
someone who typed out seven carbon 
copies of Leary, Metzner, and Al- 
pert's The Psychedelic Experience , 
and being lent David Ebin's The 
Drug Experience for one hour only! 

There have been at least fifty 
books published in this field over 
the last seven or eight years, re- 
cently, about one a month. And/Or 
Press, the main publisher of these 
works, earlier, just recently fol- 
ded. J. P. Tarcher Books, of L.A., 
has made a bold entry, turning out 
four in the space of a year, with 
one from Ron Siegel ( the last lsd 
researcher to use lsd on humans ) 
and one from Denis Mckenna, co- , 
author of The Psilocybin Mushroom 
Growers Guide , and The Invisible 
Landscape , still in the works. 

Flashing back to when Peter 
was younger, he can recall order- 
ing peyote, certified to be free 
of pests by the U.S. Agriculture 
Department, from a cactus ranch in 
Loredo, Texas. There was little 
pot about, and he actually trav- 
elled to San Francisco to get some 
lsd ( because that was the only 
place it was available ) . This was 
the time for trying Dexedrine in- 
halers and Romilar cough medicine. 

By the time Bruce tried psy- 
chedelics in 1967, pot and acid 
were the standard fare among the 
first crest of psychedelicists. He 
was always hunting around for the 
exotic psychedelics - like psilo- 
cybin mushrooms and dmt - that he 
had read about in Peter's first 
book ( LSD - The Problem-Solving 
Psychedelic , coauthored with Bonny 
Golightly) . 

Now a current popular song 
by Huey Lewis and the News de- 
mands, " I want a new drug! " 
Chemists have been happy to 
oblige, with Sasha Shulgin esti- 
mating that there are at least 200 
known psychedelic compounds al- 
ready. And, as he added at the 
Entheogenic Psychedelic Conference 
in Santa Cruz last summer, " For 
every one known today, there will 
be ten tomorrow." 

Indeed, a cornucopia of new 
substances - with effects more 
specific, more sensual, more pow- 
erful, and more in-just-about- 
every-way than the old reliables - 
has reshaped the psychedelic land- 
scape. Inquiry magazine, this Feb- 
ruary, put the change squarely: 

" The War on Drugs is Over. The 
Government Has Lost. " The disco- 
very of psychedelic effects in 
chemical variants of the more com- 
monly known psychedlics, and the 
fact that these are not illegal, 
has rent the government's policy 
of control. 

With all this new stuff hap- 
pening, we propose a bimonthly 
roundup on some of the current 
scenarios as they happen. 

Elvin B. Smith has gotten out 
six issues of his Psychozoic Press 
( which he calls " An information 
and communication exchange paper 
on psychedelics" ) . The winter 
1984 issue features an interview 
with Stanley Krippner and some 
fascinating observations about 
belladonna and pep. It's a sta- 
pled, hand-typed and hand illus- 
trated quarterly available from 
2121 Braley Rd., Coos Bay, OR. 
97420. The last one has 72 5%" x 
8V pages; subscription is $7/yr. 

Mushroom growers will find il- 
luminating information about eli- 
minating contamination, in Paul 
Stamets' and J.S. Chilton's The 
Mushroom Cultivator ( Agar ikon 
Press, 1983 ). The book has been 
carefully researched and reads almost 
like a collge test... When will 
Jeremy Bigwood' release to the 
world the Lepiota strain of mush- 
rooms he's been cultivating that 
produces dmt and lysergic acid 

Bob Barker has been scouting 
the Salk Institute in La Jolla, 
along with a few other locations, 
for a permanent base for the Fitz 
Hugh Ludlow Memorial Library. The 
materials - over 10,000 items - 
rare drug books, manuscripts and 
ephemera - are to get a new home 
this year in San Francisco. Corre- 
spond with Box 99346, San Francis- 
co 94109. 

Ears perked up when Sasha 
Shulgin, at the Entheogenic Con- 
ference, described a compound that 
Increased body awareness of eve- 
ry kind, including skin sensitivi- 
ty, heightened responses to 
smells, tastes, and sexual stimu- 
lation..." Sexual stimulation! In- 
deed, the erotic overtones as- 
cribed to an experimental compound 
known as 2CB ( 2, 5-dimethoxy-4- 
bromophenethylanine, to be more 
long-winded ) caused aficianados 
of aphrodisia to place this new 
alphabet term at the top of their 
drugs-to-find list. Good luck, 
hunting... And from the same se- 
ries comes another substance that 
so far is described only as "Eve" 
( complementing MDM, a.k.a. Adam ) 

High Frontiers 19 
Peter Stafford and Bruce Eisner 

Robert Gordon-McCutchan, chief 
organizer of the Santa Barbara En- 
theogenic Conference, continues to 
press on the campaign for legal 
use of psychedelics on religious 
grounds, despite being denied ten- 
ure at his university post. He can 
be reached at 1500 Mission Cny. 

Rd., S.B. 93105 Did you know 

that about 230 drugs listed in the 
latest volume of the Pharmacopaeia 
of the United States were used by 
the American Indians before Chris- 
topher Columbus ever showed up 

Psychiatrist and psychedelic 
researcher Harry Hermone, when 
asked if he's a shrink, responded 
" No. I'm an expander. " 

High Longevity cont 


The basic experiments go back 
to the 50s' in England, involv- 
ing hamsters. There were some 
wonderful papers describing the 
crystal izat ion of hamsters down 
to temperatures lower than minus 
3.5 degrees centigrade. The ham- 
sters were frozen to the extent 
that over 40% of their body water 
was ice. When the hamsters were 
dissected like that, their organs 
were hard, including the brain. 
It was crystallized. Dynamic 
thermal studies were done on 
these animals to show that, in 
fact, a good percentage of their 
body water was frozen. Essential- 
ly, it has been shown that ham- 
sters can be partially frozen and 
thawed. Now, this is a mammal. 
They're tough mammals, because 
they're hibernaters. But they're 
also not very much different from 
any other mammal.. 


Recently, there's been a ma- 
jor discovery. It's reported in 
the February 5,1982 issue of Sci - 
ence Magaz ine . The scientist who 
discovered this is named William 
Schmid. Anyway, there is a spe- 
cies of frogs that live in a leaf 
cover in Minnesota. What Schmid 
reported was that these frogs, 
who spent all their winter in a 
leaf cover, actually allowed 40% 
of their body water to become 
frozen as ice. It's believed that 
this is the extra-cellular water. 
What happens is that the frogs 
produce glyserol . This somehow 
allows the bodv tissues of the 
frog to survive the freezing. 

The glyserol acts, in some way, 
to let the animal keep the tis- 
sues from being destroyed. But it 
is the extra-cellular water, the 
water outside the tissue, which 
was frozen. The inside is not 
frozen. The frogs probably sur- 
vive the winter, maybe 4 or 5 
months, in the frozen state. 


What we've done recently is 
develope a technique for taking 
hamsters to the ice point, taking 
the blood out, replacing it with 
a blood substitute, putting blood 
back in, and reviving the ham- 
ster. This was just done. One of 
our associate teams in Los Angel- 
es has taken a dog, taken it down 
to 10 degrees centigrade, put it 

cont. pg. 22 

High Frontiers 20 


The Yippies ( Yes, Virginia, 
there are still yippies.) have 
come up with an interesting use 
for cryonic suspension. ( See 
High Longevity article elsewhere 
in this issue. ) They want to 
put Ronnie Reagan and George 
Bush on ice in 1984. This is an 
excellent idea, and will serve 
two purposes. One, it'll get 
the assholes out of the way. 
Two, it will give 21st century 
psychologists the opportunity to 
study their barbarian ancestry. 


While we're on the subject: 
If the Reagan administration is 
destroying the environment, 
starving the poor, and giving us 
4 delicious wars to choose from 
( Lebanon, Grenada, El Salvador, 
and Nicaragua ); and he still 
gets re-elected because of a few 
piddlin' percentage points pos- 
ing as an economic recovery, 
then which Clint Eastwood dou- 
ble-feature are we living in: 

A) Dirty Harry and The Good, The 
Bad, and the Ugly 

B) For A Few Dollars More and 
Sudden Impact 

C) For A Few Dollars More and 
For A Fistful of Dollars 


Talk about carelessness... 

High Politics 

Paul and Linda McCartney were 
busted for marijuana possession 
twice in the same day, recently. 
Considering the McCartney's 
rather middle-of-the-road image, 
they spoke out fairly strongly 
about personal freedom, telling 
the news media that " It's no- 
bodies business what we do in 
the privacy of our own bedroom," 
and advocating decriminalization 
of the weed. 

High Frontiers is ready to 
launch a no-holds-barred, milir- 
MARIJUANA campaign. Paul... if 
you're out there, with just .01% 
of your financial holdings we 
believe we could put this thing 
over the top. 


I know you've heard about my 
war on drugs, and you probably 
think I'm being a real old crab 
about the whole thing, especial- 
ly considering Nancy's behavior 
and the focus on marijuana in- 
stead of heroin, pep, peb's or 
what have you. But you folks 
just haven't figured out my 
sense of humor. Remember how I 
put a mafia man in charge of my 
war on organized crime? Congress 
didn't even blink. And I put a 
tool of big oil in charge of the 
environment . Nobody dared stop 





The Three O'clock 




First of all, as for this 
record, "Sixteen Tambourines," 
by The Three O'clock, a band 
associated with the paisley un- 
derground of neo-psychedelic 
rock, I'm sorry. It just does- 
n't cut it. 

Having only read about 
this, and some other, bands who 
were intentionally bringing 
back the spirit and style of 
such classic schlock as The 
Strawberry Alarm Clock, The 
Blues Magoos or, for a touch of 
class, Syd Barrett's original 
Pink Floyd, I was set to have 
some fun. I was hoping, as 80s' 
kids, they would know enough to 
play it humorous. Alas, they 
play it humorless. 

Syd Barret and the original 
Pink Floyd seems to be the pri- 
mary influence here, but this 
has none of the charm, humor, 
or rhythmic snap of Barrett's 
stuff. What's left is the misty 
brain-play, the blurred vi- 
sions. . . 

"In the colors seem to 

bend the night time 

Haunt me still 

Will they always be 


Say they always will" 
Actually, I listened to 
this record twice, or once-and- 
a-half. I listened one time 
straight. Was I missing some- 

thing? So I did the only decent 
and proper thing. I dropped 
some acid. 

It sounded even worse. In- 
stead of reminding me of a bad 
attempt at early Pink Floyd, I 
kept on thinking that I was 
listening to Rush. 

Anyway, on a positive note, 
having my consciousness already 
focused on pop music, I started 
going through my collection to 
see which modern records passed 
the acid test. Thus, I offer my 
entirely subjective neo-psyche- 
delic top 10 - the only rule 
being that they must be post- 
1975 releases. Listed in order 
of the amount of ecstacy and/or 
laughter set off by each. 


1. The Clones Of Doctor Funkenstein - Parlia 

2. Taking Tiger Mountain By Strategy - Brian 

3. Fourth World Musics - Brian Eno and Jon 

A. Lodger - side one except for "DJ" - David 

5. Before And After Science - Brian Eno 

6. Dane in' In Your Head - Ornette Coleman 

7. Bow Wow Wow - Bow Wow Wow 

8. Comin' Up - 45 rpm - Paul McCartney 
9 Big Science - perfect for coming down - 

Laurie Anderson 
10. More Fun In The New World - X 

Marshall McClaren 

Marin Mutants 

me! And I put a Pentagon man in 
charge of negotiating arms con- 
trol. The foxes guarding the 
chicken coop indeed. Always good 
for a laugh. 

Got it? O.K. So who should 
head my war on drugs? Your read- 
ers can send their suggestions 
to The Ronnie Reagan War On 
Drugs Joke c.o. The White House, 
Pennsylvania Ave. Washington, 


Ronnie Reagan, 
Your President 

P.S. Congratulations to High 
Frontiers for being named the 
official psychedelic newspaper 
of the 1984 Summer Olympics. 

Lyra Sound Constellation 

Michael Stearns and George Landrv 

cont inuummon t age 

This is music you want to play di- 
rectly before sleep to induce night- 
mares. Check this blurb from the album 
notes - " Lyra is the result of combin- 
ing sculpture and music - a tonal ba- 
rometer amplifying the resonance of 
people in a spatial relationship. " 
Sounds good but you ought to hear the 
album. On second thought, don't hear 
the album. ( Take my life, please. ) 

Lyra/Sound Constellation is a 
stringed instrument of 156 wires 
stretched 15 to 20 feet from floor to 
ceiling. Each wire is tuned to a mic- 
ro-tonal octave and connected to pick- 
ups wired to amplifiers and speakers in 
and around the instrument. The result 
is a machine that produces irritating 
noises; an electronic belch that lasts 
for over 40 minutes. A friend insists 
they are much better live. I shall 
take his word for it and continue to 
use Deuter and Kitaro for my space-fix. 
One cut stands out as passable; a syn- 
thesizer piece titled "Return". But the 
album, as a whole, merely redefines the 
word mediocre. An interesting concept 
spins down the shitter of dead vinyl. 

Mark Frost 

High Frontiers 21 

Countdown America: straight to the 

j THE 

T minus ten and counting. • . 

The Right Stuff Is this season's Apocalypse Now: big, bold, 
distended in certain places, irreverent, absurdly comic, 
gloriously filmed. It is perfectly cast and miscast with 
acting that ranges from the sublime to the ridiculous. It has 
its critics and it has its flaws but it is still a contender— 
this celluloid rocket that leaves the launch pad full-throttle 
and then flies at an oblique angle. That it flies at all is an 
amazing feat considering that the narrative zigzags from the 
latrine to the heavens and back again. 

nine... So what is this "stuff"? 

Unspoken and undescribed until 1973 when the astronauts 1 
alter-ego revealed itself to Tom Wolfe for a 4-part 
article in Rolling stone, The Brotherhood of the Right 
Stuff was for an elite few. If you displayed the physical, 
emotional, and mental stamina and agility that took you 
where no reasonaly sane person would dare tread— you had it! 

eight... Climbing the pyramid 

Within the heirarchy of the military existed the heirarchy 
of flying. This is where the right stuff was put to 
the test. In The Right stuff, Wolfe's book and 
Kaufman's movie, the pilot with the most righteous 
stuff is the man who who first broke the sound 
barrier in 19*17, Chuck Yeager. Because the media 
was ignorant of this fact and of the heirarchy, the 
news media made immediate heroes out of the pilots 
who were newly transformed into astronauts. 
Leapfrogging their way into the top levels of the pyramid, 
these nouveau star-voyageurs were installed as the elders of 
the club before paying their dues. 

seven... Invasion of the ravenous sopping idiots 

"The press mainly hovered, like the fruit- 
fly... my God, what a swarm of silverfish and 
second raters. . . It was obvious that the press 
was a human infestation and that they were 
going to devour your yard and the exterior of 
your life like Japanese beetles... The TV 
people especially were such absolute ravenous sopping idiots 
that to let them into your house would be like inviting the 
nine o'clock green slime from the Guiding Light." (Wolfe 
In Rolling Stone) ^^^^—^—^ 

And so the hordes of the press ^^^^^~^M corps also 
slither across the silver screen. 

six... The gatekeepers 

Any Information which might 
the astronauts' reputation was 
suppressed by all concerned: 
pilots and their wives, and Life 
(which had exclusive rights to 
nauts' personal stories). Even the 
blemishing reports, 
the holy city. 

have tarnished 
NASA, the 
V^h^-3 I the astro- 
press shied away from 
In this way, the riffraff was kept out of 

five... How the westr 
Eisenhower, LBJ, 
the Russians. The 
3 take. The specter 
Irand Designer of 
in Philip Kaufman's 
clandestine foot- 
rjLisic are ominous: 
Kruschev-like figure 
stands surrounded by 
rockets . 

Jl was won on a wing and a 

and Kennedy wanted to beat 
high-ground of space was at 
of the Mighty Integral, the 
the Soviet space craft appears 
film In hazy, simulated, 
age. The film's Images and 
a trenchcoat-clad, bald 
laughs triumphantly as he 
the Jet fumes of his 


four... The "new frontier" 

In his latest State of the Union address, 
President Reagan evoked the stance of John F. 
Kennedy by calling for the development of a 
permanent, "manned" space station within a 
decade. Reagan referred to space as the "new 
frontier." It follows that we must be the • 
new pioneers. Is the cold war and space race, 
once again, off and running? 

three... "No bucks, no Buck Rogers." 

We have some catching up to do. The NASA budget 
dropped steadily from 1966 to 1975. It was in 1965 
that the greatest number of people were employed in the 
space Industry — 4 09, 900 while the NASA budget was at a 
high of 5.25 billion. From the low point In 1975, the 
budget and employment figures began to rise again. By 
1983 there were 128,219 workers in the space industry 
and the NASA budget was 6.838 billion. We have some 
catching up to tio. Yes, but where are we going and 
what are we going to catch? 

two... Movie-made American myth 

At the premiere in Washington DC The Right stuff was 
introduced by one speaker with the statement: "Tonight 
reality becomes legend." The less-than "magnificent- 
seven" depiction notwithstanding, the astronauts took 
their place in the pantheon of American movie heroes. 

While director Kauftnan debunks the sanitized views 
and the patriotism which originally merged with the 
right stuff, he still presents us with some Intrepid 
characters. Despite being fallible bigots with plenty 
of human foibles, these guys amount to more than the 
sum of their imperfections. One of the wives describes 
the situation perfectly when she declares: "Sometimes 
men are such assholes!" 

Admittedly, we are not given as much unsavory Inform- 
ation about the Mercury Seven astronauts as Tom Wolfe 
reveals in hundreds of pages. In fact, Kaufman only 
deals with four of the seven to any extent. As a 
result, there is a sketchlness to the film. But this 
complaint fades in the view of the powerful visual- 
izations and superb characterizations that the film 

one... Local Hero blasts off 

Director Philip Kaufman impressed his actors so much 
they dubbed him the "eighth astronaut." Due to 
Kaufman's presence in San Francisco and his use of a 
good deal of Bay Area talent, his elevation to local 
hero status is quite fitting. 

Other heroes which should be mentioned include the 
ultimate right stuffer, Chuck Yeager, played by former 
local hero and playwright, Sam Shepard. Sam cuts a 
laconic, romantic figure as the gum-chewing, demon- 
daring, cowboy pilot. (This is Shepard stepping out of 
one of his own plays) 

So what does the real Yeager think about Shepard 's 

"I like the way Sam played me. Sam is not a real 
flamboyant actor, and I'm not a real flamboyant-type 
individual. Because I look at something as a job and 
I do it because it is my Job and I could care less 
about the outcome. I'm interested in survival. And 
that's the way Sam went about acting. He played his 
role the way I fly airplanes." ( Newsweek, Oct. I983) 

And from the launchpad at Hollywood's Mission 
Control comes the final report: 
"...We have a liftoff!" 

Sam Shepard ae Chuck Yeager 
with Barbara Herehey ae his 
wife, "Glamorous Glennie. " 

by Eric Marin, Feb. 1984 

High Frontiers 22 

High Longevity r.ont. 

on a heart-lung machine, replaced 
80% of its blood with blood sub- 
stitute, put the blood back in, 
warmed the dog back up, and that 
dog is still alive today. In 
fact, this was a cryonics train- 
ing event. It was a training ses- 
sion. In the training session, 
they had a dog that they were go- 
ing to prepare, just like a per- 
son who had died. So they put the 
dog under aneasthetic, and hooked 
it up to the heart-lung machine. 
And they did to the dog all the 
things we do to humans when we 
prepare them for cryonic suspen- 
sion. But what happened was, when 
the dog's heartbeat had been gone 
for 2 hours, and it was down to 
10 degrees centigrade, somebody 
said, "This dog looks so good, we 
should try to revive him." At 
that point, they stopped the 
training excercise. They took the 
blood that they had taken out of 
the dog and removed the water 
from it. They repacked the red 
cells, and pumped it back into 
the dog. Only about 20% of its 
blood volume remained. About 80% 
had been replaced with blood sub- 
stitute. And the dog revived! 


We're sure that we're going 
to be able to put this thing 
(suspended animation) over the 
top. It's just a matter of fund- 
ing . 


Multiple Media Maniacs cont . 

interviewee. The latest "industrial is- 
sue" shows the practitioners of the ex- 
tremist, shock-oriented industrial music/ 
performance-art genre to be surprisingly 
easy to typecast. He's influenced by 
Lautremont, Burroughs, Baudelaire, Aleis- 
ter Crowley, Antonin Artaud. He's fasci- 
nated by violent perversity, Charles Man- 
son, grade-b horror movies, s+m. He hates 
hippies and always did. He intends to 
shock his audience. Etcetera. 

Well, obviously we feel it might be 
time for another change of thrust. But 
for putting out one of the most challeng- 
ing, informative, and readable papers on 
earth over the last several years, Re- 
search deserves our highest grade. 

a dream of an alien nation 


HI. This is ME. 

I want you to meet NOTME. 

NOTME is everything I'm not. 

Including YOU. 

Just as N0TY0U Includes ME. 

Here 1s a picture of N0TY0U: 

That's right. N0TY0U 1s everything 
that isn't you. Including ME. You 
see. what you really are is a bifur- 
cation of nothing, of Perfect Nothing. 
If you un-b1 furcate you become nothing 
once again. 

Perfect Nothing is highly unstable. 
I can prove it to you. Try to do 
Nothing. That's it. Don't feel, 
see, smell, hear, think, sleep, 
breathe, circulate your blood . . . 
Nothing. Oo Nothing. Oo Absolutely 
Nothing. See how long you can do It. 
If you're really doing Nothing you're 
not reading these words. Aha! Old I 
catch you cheating? Keep trying to 
do Nothing. It's Impossible, you 
know? You feel how unstable it is? 
As soon as you get anywhere near 
Nothing you feel an irreslstable need 
to do Something. Or you find out 
you've been doing Something all along 
and didn't even notice. 

Perfect Nothing is unstable. It's so 
unstable it has to do Something. So 
it BIFURCATES. It splits in two. It 
splits into ME and NOTME. Into YOU 
and N0TY0U. YOU are really one half 
of a Bifurcation of Perfect Nothing. 
N0TY0U 1s your other half. 

Bifurcation would be cool 1f I didn't 
have to choose one side or the other. 
I mean, I'm ME. Not NOTME. I'm pro- 
grammed. My nervous system is geneti- 
cally programed to create and main- 
tain a viewpoint. A viewpoint 1s cre- 
ated when consciousness enters the eye 
of the beholder. In the Bifurcation 
of Nothing consciousness takes sides. 

Programmed? You mean there's a Cosmic 
Programmer 1n the Sky? Who 1s he? 
Charles Darwin? Groucho Marx? Alan 
Turing? No. None of these clowns. 
He is not he. She is not she. IT is 
PERSONNE. The greatest clown of all. 
NOBODY. That's right. NOBODY. PER- 
SONNE. NOBODY is in charge. 

NOBODY 1s in charge 

NOBODY has got it all together 

and NOBODY knows where we're going 

you're In good hands with NOBODY 

there's NOTHING to worry about 

NOBODY ceres 

Much Ado About Nothing 


NOBODY is Perfect 

NOTHING is Forever 

Perfect Nothing 1s the Source 

there's NOTHING to live for 


(you're nobody til somebody loves you) 

Bifurcation and Humanity 

Lorenzo Kristov 

Ego gets a lot of bad press lately. 
From self-righteous spiritual self- 
defecators. Enlightened assholes. 
Without EGO there is no human life. 
EGO 1s the psyche's IMMUNE SYSTEM. It 
maintains the boundary. ME and NOTME. 
A healthy EGO 1s dynamic — it grows 
and changes with experience. EGO is 
hardware. Standard equipment. Once 
programmed 1t runs automatically. It 
selects new Input — exclude or admit. 
Or — admit and quickly repress. If 
pain can be neither excluded nor re- 
solved 1t is repressed — stored away 
in the musky basement of the psyche. 
ME must survive! Starting with pain 
and pleasure EGO builds complex soft- 
ware to manage my social life. 

My EGO is not ME. [Not NOTME either. 
After all. It is MY ego.] ME 1s my 
SELF is my conscious Hfe. Are you 
aware that you're YOU right now? If 
not you've been dozing again. EGO is 
mostly unconscious — It acts on all 
the old software, input when ME was a 
helpless infant. ME had to eat to 
stay alive. To breathe and stay warm. 
Survival I Powerful software. Now add 
social roles. Ideas about my SELF. 
Hey! Where's my will? Who am I? 
What am I doing here? You better talk 
to me, whoever s doing this. I'm big 
around here. Nobody to mess with. 


Bifurcation. I experience my SELF as 

a separate entity. The rest of the 

Universe outside of ME is NOTME. 


And we're distinct. NOTME and ME. 

There Is a boundary between us 

and I'm on one side. 

I may feel Incomplete. Something 
essential is missing. Lost or mis- 
placed. I may seek my whole Hfe for 
wholeness, fulfillment. The reunion 
of ME with NOTME. The itch that never 
gets scratched. Though I sure try. 

Bifurcation. I am conscious. SELF 
conscious. My awareness explores two 
separate realms: outer and inner, 
real and imaginary. NOTME and ME. My 
awareness explores its SELF and every- 
thing else. 

Conscious of Bifurcation I may feel 
alone, abandoned, homeless. At the 
mercy of an unknown future. Helpless 
and afraid. Ontological Angst for you 
existential philosophers out there. I 
would be much happier if I had some- 
thing to say about the future. If I 
could reliably plan for what spacetime 
is bringing ME. 

Consciousness is a quality of neuro- 
physiologies! functioning. It is a 
resonance pattern which may occur in 
a complexly structured nervous sys- 
tem as one of that system's regular 
repertoire of resonances. It is the 
I-Resonance. It creates ME. Early 
1n Hfe the I-Resonance is evoked by 
affect-laden external stimuli. Soon 
Its adaptive value "fixes" 1t 1n the 
organism, and the organism develops 
a continuous sense of ME. Separate 
from NOTME. Bifurcation. I feel no 
longer whole. I am body and soul. I 
am spirit incarnate. Deified beast. 
Female and Male. Torn between heaven 
and hell. On the road again. 'Bye. 


EGO has solidified — social roles and 
early events create the most powerful 
programs. Nothing to laugh at! This 
is your creation. If you want some- 
thing better you better go do it your- 
self. And if you mean to try you bet- 
ter start "by updating your programs. 
Programs are stored by associating 
external stimuli with Internal feeling 
states or RESONANCES of the nervous 
system. This is where you begin. For 
each resonance you feel, your EGO has 
stored a memory of its associated ex- 
ternal stimuli. Where is the memory 
stored? If you don't know where, try 
the basement. — Shri Hogwash Dungh 


The Imaginary Structure of Reality 

"he story begins before stories. Maybe 
oefore language. I can only suppose. 
3efore technology, certainly. (Here the 
reader closes her eyes and reads in the 
dark, disregarding her parents' warnings. 
Easily done as she reads her imaginary 
story, not the one I imagined. ) 

Exercise 1. Read the following passage. 
Draw the words in through your eyes with 
each inhalation of breath. Allow sponta- 
neous images to arise and remember these 
images in their original order. Later 
you will again close your eyes to recall 
the sequence of images. Slowly. Be 1n 
each image. Feel it. Your imaginary 
journey will evoke everything you need 
to continue. 

Your senses receive no Input. 

You smell taste hear feel see nothing. 

You can't tell YOU froei anything else. 

There is a tingling all through your body. 
It swells and subsides. Waves of electric 
power. The tingling can not be located. 
You must follow it. The waves have regu- 
larity. A reassuring rhythm. The ting- 
ling is a high frequency vibration. A 
resonance of your nervous system. Inner 
sound. Power. Your SELF arriving. And 
leaving again. Hey! Stick around, huh? 

(Man is now separating matter from energy. 
Are we all made from the same info or not? 
Cosmic fuzziness? Incomplete knowledge? 
Man wants all the info, but no such luck. 
There is always some left for him to go 
looking for. Is it only a matter of time? 
Do we await the day of total knowledge, of 
technological perfection? Or is there an 
essential cosmic fuzziness which will al- 
ways elude us? Scientists say we can and 
must complete the bifurcation of energy 
and information. Mystics say we can't. 
The big problem for the scientists is the 
SELF. Self-reference. Their whole ap- 
proach rests on a logical argument. But 
logic breaks down. Paradox. Ours is a 
self-referential Universe.] 


There is NOTHING to get wor 
ked up about. You might wan 
t to know just what evolves 
e genetically endowed with 
the capacity for our nervou 
s system to resonate in var 
ious patterns. Early in our 
lives our experience reinfo 
rces certain ones of these 
resonances. A primitive one 
is the Survival Resonance. 
Its neural center is the Hy 
pothalaaus, the Reptile Bra 
in. In the more highly evol 
ved Mammal Brain, centered 
in the Liable System, the 
Ma-Resonance arises, enabll 
ng a mother and infant to r 
ecognlze each other. Your 1 
ife in utero leaves the Ma- 
Resonance impressed on you. 
The Neocortex is the seat o 
f the I-Resonance, the awar 
eness of SELF, consdousnes 
s. And a wide repertoire of 
all imaginable feeling stat 
es. When the Survival Reson 
ance is evoked I am a reptl 
le. Survive! No time for ra 
tlonality! Falling in love 
evokes the Ma-Resonance. Wa 
tch out! The Payoff — with 
the I-Resonance engaged I f 
eel FREE. Autonomous. Phi lo 
sophers argue about free w1 
11 without realizing it's a 
feeling state, a resonance 
of the nervous system. Magi 
c Is the ability to shift r 
esonances at will. AT WILL. 
SELF-reprogramm1ng. Transfo 
rmatlon. Conscious Evolutlo 
n. Are you for real? If you 
're real, you're evolving. 
How? Experience reinforces 
certain resonances more tha 
n others. Behavioral condlt 
ioMng. Also conditioned In 
the process is your Immune 
System. White blood cells c 
an emit free oxygen radical 
s and cause mutations in yo 
ur germ plasm. Sound spooky 
? Lamarck1an7 You think mut 
atlons are Just random? Ran 
domness is the name we use 
for what we can't explain. The 
reprogram the other resonances 

Now you are a human being. You are faced 
with several unique circumstances. You 
live in an environment that sometimes does 
weird things to you. You have an unknown 
future approaching, waiting in the foggy 
realm of potential. Gets pretty scary when 
you think about it. no? Seems like the 
best thing to do is to try to anticipate 
all future possibilities and then do things 
to bring about the ones you like best. 
There is something wrong if you do not 
learn from your experience. What you learn 
is to eliminate unexpected events. Of 
course you would want to eliminate only 
those possibilities you don't like. Allow 
some pleasant surprises now and again. Oh 
yeah? Impossible! The whole idea of pre- 
diction and control is to eliminate all 
surprises. You can't surprise yourself if 
you wrap your own presents. I wonder why 
I'm here. Maybe I'm not here. I know why. 
To take charge of creation. Move over. 
God. Time to retire. Gee. do I get a 
pension? And a gold watch? No. You Just 
go play golf for the rest of eternity. 
Shit 1 Just when I was having so much fun. 
Do you see what I mean? Language is the 
means by which we abstract info from crea- 
tion. If we have all the info and if we 
can transform energy we can run the whole 
universe. Good old American know-how. and 
funding. With these we can do anything. 
So what do we do? Try to eliminate uncer- 
tainty. We try to get more info. All of 
1t! The process of abstraction. Separa- 
ting info from energy. Deconstructing 
matter. Un-do1ng time. Pulling knowledge 
from life. But where 's the catch? Self- 
reference I 

The act of makmt the separation requires 
energy. Maxwell s Demons. And what good 
1s this separation anyway? Based on a bi- 
furcation himself, man goes around making 
bifurcations everywhere. Making knowledge. 
Seduced by the success of his technology 
he gets locked into a rational scientific 
mode. He is bound to his own invention. 
Prometheus chained to his pillar of fire. 
His mind becomes inflexible. His behavior 
Is totally programmed. Heady with success 
and armed with technique he goes for more 
control. Control. His POWER 1s lost. 




I-Resonance enables you to consciously 
of your nervous system. And pass it on. 

Lorenzo Kristov, Instructor 
A man must have chaos yet vlthin him 
to give birth to a dancing star. 
— Nietzsche 

Life Is chaotic. Being real requires 
accepting chaos and managing it effec- 
tively. Learn skills. Exercises for 
awakening your hibernating chaos mana- 
ger. Turn life experiences and bad 
habits into a creative adventure. 
Latest Imaginary Dimension Research 
Institute findings about Nothing. 
Prerequisites: must know Nothing. 


What's wrong with men? Where's their 
Power? Where's OUR Power? How will 
we evolve without our POWER? Without 
our WILL? Are we Indeed willows? 
Will we wait forever? For what? 
Shr1 Hogwash Oungh: It all seems to 
come down to the mother. We are all 
afraid to cut the rope and be free. 
We are all hung up in the paralysing 
tension created by a love of adventure 
and a need for protection. So we seek 
adventure 1n the protection of a mot- 
her, if she is available, or in the 
imagination. Some of us find less 
obvious mothers, like magic or music. 
Or psychedelic drugs. Some of us 
surrender totally to the imagination, 
never to be real. 8ut the real Free- 
dom, the real Power comes from being 
able to leave never to return 1f need 
be. Only when the adventure 1s com- 
plete. Or else we are forever pigs, 
groveling in a muddy sty or held on a 
chain by our infant needs. Madness. 
Freedom. Power. POWER. 

Erotic musings run like bricks 
Past women in the Cafe Fix. 
Into chickens grow little chicks. 
Too rarely do our fluids mix. 

Power 1s the ability to act and to 
take responsibility. Power Is freedom 
from fear of the opposite sex. You 
only oppress what you're afraid of. 
If men oppress women and other men 
they are slaves of their fear — fear 
of the earth and all life. Power 1s 
the ability to change. To adapt. 
Power is Trust In Life. 


When nonlsts and dualists argue the 
dualists always win. After all, 1f 
the Universe were not intrinsically 
dual i stic there would be no argument 
— NOBODY to argue with. 


Boredom has been an unrecognized force 
In evolution. On a rainy day when 
you're stuck Inside with nothing to do 
you can evolve. You can send down new 
dendrites and enlarge your adaptive 
capacity. This Is Power. Conscious 
deliberate evolution. Power arises 
with will, autonomously. Evolution 
follows from the awareness of poten- 
tial when that awareness Is Infused 
with Personal Power. 


Personal power Is a state of aware- 
ness. It is knowing yourself to be an 
effective agent Instead of a helpless 
pawn moved by karma or external 
forces. Our inheritance, the Jewish- 
Christian myth, places God beyond man. 
God the manipulator. Jesus said that 
God 1s within you, but you weren't 
paying attention. God 1s within. A 
projection of the psyche. The ancient 
truth has been forgotten. Ignored, or 
never known. How do we awaken and 
remember 7 How do we get free of the 
External God? How do we claim the 
power of our bodies and souls, to live 
by that power? What do I want to be 
when I grow up? Something practical 
that pleases my mother. Perhaps a 

Power must transcend many levels, must 
Infiltrate many spheres of Influence. 
At the personal level POWER EQUALS 
CREATIVITY. The ability to act 1n 
novel ways rather than out of habit. 
Free will over coercive programming. 
At the social level POWER INTERNALIZES 
AUTHORITY. We can operate legisla- 
tively, democratically. Instead of ' 
leaving It up to THEM. There 1s no 
THEM. WE are THEM. WE are the only 
THEM there is. The success of demo- 
cracy depends on all of us being 
Involved In a powerful way. As indi- 
viduals. Instead of just blaming 
others and bitching. 


A creative process. We educate our 
selves to be citizens of the world. 
We work together instead of alone, to 
find and follow the ways of Power. We 
are men who realize that our ability 
to create our personal lives mirrors 
our ability to change the world. The 
world 1s ripe with crises — wars, 
nuclear stockpiles, poverty, oppres- 
sion, and — a technology which com- 
pels us to feed It. We humans have 
lost control. We never really had 1t. 
We will find our Power. How do we 
change the world? We find within 
ourselves and in each other the Source 
of Power. And we honor it. 


Things are invented and produced be- 
cause they can be. Technology grows. 
NOBODY controls technology. It 1s out 
of Control. True, Control 1s not 
Power, but 1t Isn't such a bad thing 
either. I differentiate Power and 
Control not to dismiss Control as a 
poor substitute for Power, but to 
point out the danger of confusing one 
for the other. Both are necessary. 
Power is Creativity. Control is good 
management. Power and Control must go 
hand 1n hand. The obsession with 
Control 1s dangerous. Deadly. Gulp. 

your senses receive no Input 
you smell taste hear feel see nothing 
you can't tell YOU from anything else 

We must all learn to integrate our 
masculine and feminine sides. Rigid 
sex roles maintain a wall of mistrust 
and ignorance between men and women. 
Rigid roles of any kind prevent indi- 
viduation and must be overthrown. All 
people have masculine and feminine 
aspects. They are different. Comple- 
mentary. Both Powerful. Males and 
Females are different. Complementary. 
Powerful. Afraid of each other's 
Power. (Where'd I put my s1x-gun?) 
Power is not to be had 1n the domina- 
tion of others or of the earth. Tech- 
nology 1s not Power. Wealth is not 
Power. Power 1s Life. Feel 1t. 

1984 Lorenzo Kristov. Dancing Star Lumenatlons, Berkeley California 

The I-Resonance 

Aware of its Own Being 

Remembers and Anticipates 



A Mystery. What happened forty thousand years ago? Neanderthal Han vanished. 
And WE arrived, 1n thoroughly modern human bodies. Where did we come from? 
Was Neanderthal our ancestor? Why did he disappear? Here 1s his story. 
Neanderthal Man strained the limits of his skin. Inheriting the curse of his 
ancestor Prometheus. Homo erectus. Neanderthal accepted no boundary but knew no 
way out. Until the Moon found him. Her darkness embraced him. He breathed 
her light. Entranced, he longed for her. He claimed her for himself. He flew 
after her, without success — she vanished. Frustrated and charged with desire 
he found his Will. The I-Resonance. His Initiation to the Human Race. This 
New Man set off in search of the Moon. He pursued her through endless galaxies 
to the Edae of Expansion of the Universe. And there he met her — in the form 

of a fierce DRAGON. 
Why there is no good leadership In America. 

(Lorenzo Kristov 's closing remarks at the First Blfurca- 
tlonlst Party Nominating Convention, Berkeley California, 
Independence Day, 1988.) 

Alexis DeToquevllle said that the American Oemocracy will 
ensure the rise of mediocre leadership. Do you believe 
that? I say we have a choice. Democracy has a choice. 
Mediocrity or Excellence. The choice Is ours. The choice 
is yours [points at audience). 

NOBODY 1s in charge. Our country is a living organism. 
And we are its cells. Of course there is no good leader- 
ship I America is designed so that NOBODY can effectively 
run her. There is no one place where all the Info is kept. 
So NOBODY can take over. 

Not to say there aren't Jerks and maniacs. Loonies out 
there. Everywhere. At all levels. Some of THEM have grand 
designs on US. On the whole world. But NOBODY — not 
Russia, not China, not an egomanlacal dictator — can run 
America. Anyone who tries will get eaten. The American 
Democracy 1s alive. As alive as you are. America 1s YOU. 

America is a living organism. A living organism. Life 
evolves. America must evolve to be alive. Not to evolve 
is to die. Evolution. All through evolution species have 
gone extinct. Their fatal flaw was a loss of flexibility, 
a loss of adaptability. Life must adapt. So must civili- 
zations, governments, families. Individuals. Rigidity Is 
the enemy of life. 

Evolution proceeds by balance. Balance between the stabi- 
lity of Its collective. structures and the Innovation of 
its Individuals. Society creates all of Its own struc- 
tures. The more you ask government to do the more complex 
the structure required, and the greater the loss of flexi- 
bility. Flexibility 1s found In the Power you bring Into 
the world each day. The Power of Life. This Power nouri- 
shes you. It nourishes all whoa you touch. The more you 
do for yourself and your friends and family, the more you 
create the solutions to your problems, the more flexible 
you remain. The more Alive. Successfully evolving. Col- 
lective stability depends on Individual Innovation. Risk. 

This Is your Oemocracy. If you went 1t to live you must 
Invest your life In 1t. Don't Just go to work every day 
and snooze in front of the teevee at night. Don't keep 
trying to get more pay and more benefits for less work. 
Oon't keep buying things to anesthetize yourself. Wake 
up. Oon't be a victim and Just bitch about It. Make your 
work alive. Live. Enjoy 1t. If It's not right then make 
1t different. Change yourSELF. Create your Life. Evolve. 

So It's like, I mean, you know, I mean, you hear where I'm 
coming from? You gotta live, you know? I mean, do stuff. 
Do It. Create Oemocracy. damn 1tl Nobody Is In charge. 
You hear mt? NOBOOYI So go and do it. Go on. Go away. 
Get out of here you bastards! Gat the fuck out of harm I 
GO I (Puts on red devil mask and drives audience from hall 
with roars and menacing gestures. ) You're going, to burnt 

Terrified, his who 
le body shuddered 
and expelled a thu 
nderous roar, sunn 
onlng from the dep 
ths of his own dar 
Dragon and Wlldman 
met in mortal comb 
at. but their batt 
le knew no end. At 
last they dissolve 
d In Darkness and 
sank to the center 
of the Earth. Then 
on the surface of 
that Earth were bo 
rn Man and Woman. 
Naked. In trouble. 
Look now into each 
other's Eyes. See 
the Oregon and the 
Wlldman. So Alive! 

Man: Will you let 
me be. God? 
God: Be. You have 
my permission. 
Man: You sure? No 

God: You want 1t 
1n writing? 
Man: What's writ- 

God: You figure 1t 
out, Smart-Ass. 

(Hunh? Ooes this mean the end of our 
western civilization?) My Intuition 
tells me of the coming bifurcation of 
humanity Into EARTHLINGS — survivors 
of the global waste left by W Civ — 
and SPACE VAGABONDS — the children 
of technology. Children of Progress. 
Medical Technology 1s perfecting the 
body. Behavioral Technology 1s con- 
ditioning the nervous system to arti- 
ficial environments. A new generation 
1s arriving. A generation with no 
emotional bond to Mother Earth. The 
generation of the Electronic Mother. 
The video arcade. They will be all • 
set to go when the world's defense 
Industry gives its vast resources to 
a new mission. We are witnessing the 
birth of a new species. We are its 
primitive ancestors. Its Mother and 
its Father. We will give 1t life. 
And we will wave goodbye as its man- 
made womb carries it away. We will 
remain — EARTHLINGS — If we are 
allowed to remain alive. If those 
who leave leave us our dear earth. 

the new species 1s safely away UN- 
TIL politicians and Industrialists 
have a safe place to stand. A safe 
place from which to direct the war 
of nations. The space vessels will 
be built. Who will be aboard them 
to speak to save the earth? Where 
Is the vitality of our generation? 
brothers. They must each respect 
and support the other. EARTHLINGS 
will Inherit the earth. The SPACE 
VAGABONDS can always drop in for a 
cold one on their way to eternity. 


Whaddaya mean "It's too soon"? 

It's time — NOW — let's evolve! 

You wanna be a fish all your life? 

Afraid of dry land? 

Afraid of the trees? 

Afraid to eet the fruit? 

I'm going. 

I can't breathe down hare. 

I've had It being wet all the time. 

I can't wait anymore. 

Come on, we can evolve together. 


Maybe I'll see you 1n the next round 

The next cosmic breath 

The next . . . Something. 

• drmam) of an alien nation Includes 

selections from the forthcoming book 

Poetry 1s Making Language 

by Lorenzo Kristov 

Featured Is Kristov 's opus mom e ntous 

The Theory to Explain Everything — 

The Imaginary Dimension 

Is Orthogonal to Space time 

(Oanclng Star Lumenatlons. Berkeley) 

The missing link betvmen ap«s and humans 1s you. — PERSONHa* 

Leary cont . High Frontiers 23 

are. Anyway... "HELLO, RAY!" " Listen, 
Tlmmy. When you escaped from prison, we 
were pissed off. Really. It was a terri- 
ble Insult, and I thought that you were 
my worst enemy. But then, secretly, we 
thought it all over and, number one, it 
was a great escape. Number two, it took, 
us a month to figure out how you did it. 
And number three, the Warden ( Someone 
named Slaughter or... you know, all pri- 
son gaurds have names like Granite and 
Concrete, right? )... Anyway, he said, 
" That stupid jerk Slaughter, man, was 
always such a big, gung-ho, Law-and-or- 
der man, he was a pain, you know? We all 
hated him. So we were glad when you es- 
caped. We fired him after that"(laugh- 
ter) . So I sent him a copy of Flash- 
backs , and I said, " Listen. Would you 
kind-of look it over for authenticity 
and reality? Maybe you'd write a review 
for a prison journal, you know, or...." 
Frankly, there's so much chat's in- 
conceivable, it really is such a far-out 
book because it's been such a far-out 
period we've all lived through. The book 
is about what we've been going through. 
This makes science fiction look like 
girl-scout/boy-scout stuff. So I wanted 
a prison official to say... " Yeah. 
That's the way it was. " He called back 
with a rave review! So I'm citing this 
as an example of how things go around. 
And to meet Eldrldge Cleaver and have 
Eldrldge sharing this moment is, you 
know. . . . 

W.N.- By the way, you do outline pre- 
cisely what the process of your escape 
was . And I Imagine some changes have 
been made since that. 

T.L.- Oh, yeah. I've got a map in here 
of the prison and how you can escape it 

W.N.- Step by step... he wonders why 
they call him Timmy. There's a bit of 
the Irish pixie in there. I'd like to go 
back to the initial experiment with the 
hallucinogens, your trip to Mexico and 
how that affected you. I assume that was 
the first time that you had that experi- 

T.L.- Yeah. When I went to Harvard... 
it's one of the great ironies of history 
chat I was Invited to Harvard in 1960 
because they wanted someone to institute 
some innovative changes (laughter). 
Well, they got their money's worth. 

At that time, I was a very straight- 
arrow, narrow-minded person. I was very 
much against computers at that time be- 
cause, in the 1960s' , computers were 
mainframes that cost millions of dollars 
and were owned by Bell Telephone Compa- 
ny, IBM, CIA, Department of Motor Vehi- 
cles... no friends of mine! So I had 
this prejudice that computers were 
things that stapled you and punched you 
and. . . 

W.N.- Big brother. 

T.L.- Yeah. And there were these monks, 
the few experts, who controlled it. 

I was also very much against drugs 
at the time. This was just the period 
chat tranquilizers were coming In, we 
vaguely knew chat the CIA had spent 
25 million dollars!' !) doing research on 
Lsd. So I was kind-of against drugs. 

You know how, in World War 2, they 
used drugs. Sodium Amythol, to get peo- 
ple to confess things. The psychia- 
trists wanted to get in on it, too. 

So I thought of drugs as another in- 
vasion of privacy and personal integrity 
by the system. I was totally wrong, of 
course, on both aspects. Personal com- 
puters and recreational computers, per- 
sonal drugs and recreational drugs, are 
simply 2 ways in which individuals have 
learned to take these powers back from 
the state, and make them available for. . 

W.N.- So rather than limiting, you see 
them as empowering. 

T.L.- What? 

W.N.- Drugs and technology. 

T.L.- Mo. They can be both. It depends 
on how you use them. 

W.N.- All right. That's... 

T.L.- Ain't it the truth. 

W.N.- Ain't it the truth. That's some- 
thing I'd like to gee at. 

T.L.- All right, we're gonna settle this 
whole thing about drugs right here in 
tha next 10 minutes. 

High Frontiers 24 

W.N.- You had gone Co Mexico with a very 
literate group of people. But many 
seemed to be in the same position you 
were, very straight. So it must have 
been an entirely new experience for ev- 
eryone Involved. And when people do 
that sort of experiment, it opens them 
up to places that are totally unfamil- 

T.L.- Well, it became apparent to us 
( and how sad, too, because this had 
been known to visionaries and mystics, 
poets, and whoever ) that there were 
realms of awareness, and galaxies of 
consciousness, and tremendous dimensions 
of Intelligence inside the brain that 
were not normally available to the owner 
of said brain. It came as a great sur- 
prise to us, a delightful shock, to dis- 
cover that you could actually take a 
plant or a vegetable substance and ac- 
cess the circuits in your, as John Lilly 
would say, bio-computer. So with tremen- 
dous enthusiasm and high Utopian hopes, 
we came back to Harvard and set up a re- 
search project which went on for a cou- 
ple of years. Ue had about 35 graduate 
students, instructors, divinity profes- 
sors, and various people working to de- 
velop a language, techniques, and meth- 
ods for using the brain-activaters for 
personal growth and change of your mind. 

W.N.- Tim, this implies one thing. And L 
think it has been your pattern, essen- 
tially, to continue the use over and 
over and over. And there are others who 
say once or twice, successfully done... 

T.L.- Are you talking about sex here or 
drugs? ( laughter and applause ) 

W.N.- I'm sure that's part of it. 

T.L.- We're like Cheech and Chong here! 

W.N.- I'll buy that. 

T.L.- You're a great straight man Caudl- 
ence laughter.) 

W.N.- As to the whole process of using 
drugs as an opening device to achieve 
other states of consciousness, you seem 
to feel that it's neccessary to repeat 
the use of the drug to achieve that 
state of mind. Others have questioned 

T.L.- I know. They sure do! The secret's 

W.N.- Have you tried not? 

T.L.- Have I tried celibacy? Yeah. I've 
gone for months at a time without drugs 
(laughter). Let's get a little precise 

AUDIENCE MEMBER- Fuck you! I said fuck 

T.L.- Are you having an experience over 

W.N.- I was wondering. Maybe they should 
retire to a corner. 

AUDIENCE MEMBER- Well, this brother here 
asked me why I sat here. I want to hear 
you. That's why I sat here. All right! 

T.L.- I want you to hear me. I want to 
hear you, too. 

AUDIENCE MEMBER- I ain't listening to 

T.L.- I don't blame you. I'm with you. 
Anyway, where were we? 

You wanted to hear about the drug 
situation. The word, DRUG, has such emo- 
tional overtones. D-R-U-G, the very word 
sets off nuclear explosions in the 
brain, from Nancy Reagan to Cheech and 
Chong. Rather than talk about drugs, I 
think it's more useful to talk about the 
states of consciousness, or the levels 
of intelligence, or the degree of mood 
or empathy that you want to get to. 
Let's talk about the end-states. Be- 
cause, obviously, drugs are a means to 
an end. 

Now, it was true that there was a 
time in the 60s' when the means became 
so interesting to us that we were, you 
know, always talking... we would say 
with great pride... " I'm a doper!" 
Looking back, well great but what about 
it? At that time we were in the position 
of people that had just discovered the 
airplane or the automobile. We got so 
concerned with the fact that... "Wowl", 
there are these technologies, or meth- 
ods, that can get us different places. 
We forgot, many of us, that the point 
was not the vehicle but the place you 
wanted to go to, and the purpose. 

So rather than talk about whether 
someone should or shouldn't use drugs, I 

think we should talk about your ability 
to put your brain and your nervous sys- 
tem in the place you want It to be, to 
deal with whatever reality you want to 
create. Then we can talk about moods, 
intelligence states, sensory dimensions, 
aphrodisiac possibilities, memory en- 
hancers- We could list, perhaps, 100 
psychological states which may, or may 
not, but probably can be precisely ac- 
celerated, activated, or contacted by a 
certain form of meditation, or by a form 
of drug, or whatever. So we should talk 
about the end-points, which are the di- 
mensions, functions, achievements, and 
possibilities of the human bio-computer, 
which can be activated ANYWAY YOU CAN 

I've learned so much about drugs 
and the brain in the last 6 months from 
working with a personal computer. I'm 
being tutored by my son, 9 years old, 
and my two grandchildren, 10 and 11, who 
are way ahead of me, naturally. I see 
that to get the computer to give you a 
certain reality, you have to know how to 
activate it. There is a code. In this 
sense, I find It useful right now to 
think of drugs as access codes to open 
up dimensions of the brain that you want 
to use, either as furniture, or to cre- 
ate your new reality. 

W.N.- Well, take computers as an exam- 
ple. You need to know the code, the 
technique, you have to have your head 
together in order to push the right 
keys and bring about the results you 
want. And that is one area where the use 
of drugs can be very questionable. As to 
whether you can keep your act together 
while experiencing this expanded sense 
of consciousness. So, it seems that 
what's constantly emphasized by any re- 
sponsible person is the Importance of 
set and setting. It's a matter of being 
intelligent and intentional about use. 
Now, what of casual use? What's your 
opinion of casual use? 

T.L.- We're talking about sex.' 

W.N.- Recreational... 

T.L.- I don't want to spend all this 
time talking about drugs. 

W.N.- I think this guy's sexy. All 
right. Let's not... 

T.L.- Casual use. Well, I don't want you 
to think I'm dodging anything here. I've 
got this label of a drug guru. Come on. 
Number one, I'm a scientist. Number two, 
I'm an Irishman, and Irishmen don't get 
involved with gurus. Really. Anyway, I 
definitely feel it's my obligation to 
deal with these questions about drugs. 
Remember, I said let's not use the word 
drug, let's use the word brain? Casual 
use of the brain. Recreational use of 
the brain. ( laughter and applause ) 
Confused fuck-up use of the brain. 
Blocking out the circuits of the brain. 
Sometimes, it's useful, if you're feel- 
ing great pain. In general, blocking out 
the circuits of your brain is not a good 
idea. I think we're in basic agreement 
here, aren't we? 

W.N.- So we need to have that perception 
and that consciousness that can really 
analyze why we're taking the drug. It's 
not to set up a good-bad judgement about 
it. If you're doing it recreationally, 
know you're doing it recreationally. If 
you're doing it erotically, do It eroti- 

T.L.- I believe that the human bio-com- 
puter occassionally wants a big kind of 
carnival blast. And I think that pre- 
cisely controlled excess is absolutely 
necessary for sanity. ( Audience laugh- 
ter and applause ) On the other hand, 
excess wmch leads to too much gross- 
ness, loss of dignity, or certainly, 
offense to anyone else, is to be de- 
plored... but to be forgiven. 

W.N.- A lot of people feel that there's 
a lot to be forgiven in much of what has 
transpired in your lifetime. On the 
other hand, I think that a number of 
people here have come with a sense of 
gratitude, with thanks for what you've 
done for their lives. 

T.L.- That happens to me a great deal. 
i Almost every day, someone will come up 
to me and say, " I really thank you for 
what you've done to my life. " Now the 
fact that these are usually valet-park- 
ers and waiters, rather than the owners 
of the restaurant... or when I was in 
prison, (Remember, Eldridge?) I'd go in- 
to a cell block and half the guys would 
say... " I owe it all to you." (Audience 
laughter) I've never had someone with 
several mill Ion dollars coma up to ma 

and tell me how much he owes me. 

W.N. The style of this book ( Flashbacks ) 
is very non- linear. 

T.L.- I think it's very linear compared 
to. .. 

W.N.- It's linear to you, probably. 

T.L.- I wrote this for people that 

it's a nice story. 

W.N.- It is a nice story, yes. Even if 
it jumps back and forth 40 years. 

T.L.- I shot 2200 pages, cut it down, 
edited it to 500. So there's a lot of 
editing. I think that it is an incredi- 
ble book. It is the first definitive 
history of the Baby-Boom Generation of 
the 60s' and 70s'. There'll be many 
others. I hope there will be many other 
definitive biographical memoirs about 
this time because it was such an impor- 
tant time. I'm very proud of this book. 

W.N.- It couldn't have been written 
without the life to go with it. 

I'd like to jump to something that 
intrigues me. You've been very interest- 
ed in moving into physical outer space. 
We've been talking some about the desire 
to move into some of the inner spaces. 
I'm wondering where you stand on outer 
space at this point. 

T.L.- I was one of the first cheerlead- 
ers for the space migration movement, 
for the fact that civilians could move 
out into high orbit. I continue to fol- 
low this with great interest, and when 
you saw that shuttle land two days ago, 
and they just parked It there and off 
comes these guys and a woman... I mean, 
it was no more dangerous than the Holly- 
wood freeway at 5 o'clock. That was a 
tremendous moment. The absolute certain- 
ty and dependability of our ability to 
leave the planet and become post-terres- 
trial is... fortunately, the govern- 
ment's paid for the railroad across the 
continent and now we're waiting for... 
they don't know what to do with it. 
Well, we knew 7 years ago how to use it. 

Late-Breaking Leary: 1984 
& the Censorship 
of Flashbacks 

There are two theories about the fu- 
ture of human evolution that I listen 
to, and pay a great deal of respect to. 
The first is the one that I really be- 
lieve in. Which is, we're in the golden 
age of human evolution and human civili- 
zation. There's never been a period 
where there's so many enlightened souls. 
I go around this country regularly, and 
I tell ya, there are ten, twenty, thir- 
ty, forty, maybe fifty million relative- 
ly enlightened people on this continent 

Now, we are in a golden age. We see 
so many things that are wrong; poverty, 
hunger, discrepancies, racial and rell- 
gous conflicts, warfare, neglect to the 
.enviroment. But the very fact that we're 
aware of these as problems, and are con- 
cerned about them, that wasn't going on 
nearly as much 100 years ago. I was 
talking to Michael about his father, and 
the miners who used to go out into the 
North Sea. The English sent them out 
there, you know, they sent children out 
to get the coal, because the children 
could get Into the crannies where the 
adults couldn't. Now, how far we've 
come. The fact that we see a lot that is 
wrong is not a sign that we're terrible. 
There's no original sin. Christ didn't 
die for our sins to put us in this ter- 
rible position. At least we're aware of 
what needs to be done. 

We are In the Golden Age. And we are 
going to go Platinum when the baby-boom 

Since the Will Nofke interview with Timothy 
Leary took place (way back) in the summer of '83, 
High Frontiers decided that it would be a good 
idea to talk to Tim now ( February, 1984) and find 
out what's new 

Aside from having a movie out, "Return En- 
gagement", which shows part of a Leary-Liddy de- 
bate, and contrasts Che lives of these two contro- 
versial men, Tim has just completed a talk show 
pilot which he's attempting to sell for syndica- 
tion. He's also found that neurolinguistic pro- 
gramming corresponds very well with his own theo- 
ries on re- imprinting and personal evolution. He's 
also writing a novel about "Personal evolution 
through artificial intelligence." 

I asked Tim if he has found more people becom- 
ing interested in his theories of evolution and 
brain-circuity since he's been in such high media 
profile over the last year of two. " Yes. Some of 
the younger scientists, psychologists, and anthro- 
pologists have been applying these theories to 
their own work." 

Dr. Leary also held forth on the significance 
of .1984. He pointed out that George Orwell's book, 
which will be the focus of a great deal of thought 
and attention this year, is essentially about the 
conflict between " The individual's right to pro- 
gram hir own brain... hir own reality," contrasted 
with " The state trying to program peoples' brains 
for them... It's interesting that this is also the 
one-hundredth anniversary of Huckleberry Finn , 
Mark Twain's definitive book of American irrever- 
ence toward authority." 

Finally, as you may have read In "Interview", 
or elsewhere, Flashbacks was censored. The censor- 
ing involved information about the mysterious 
death of Mary Pinchot Meyer, socialite, J.F.K. 
consort, and the woman who tried to turn-on the 
political power elite in Washington, D.C. 

It seems that Leary had included, in Flash - 
backs , a great deal of information, and conjec- 
ture, based on a book titled, {Catherine The Great : 
Katherine Graham And The Washington Post , written 
by Deborah Davis. This information shows connec- 
tions between Ben Bradlee and Katherine Graham, 
editor and publisher of The Washington Post, and 
the cia, all tied in with the mysterious circum- 
stances surrounding the death of Mary Pinchot 
Meyer. Also playing a starring role in this is 
Cord Meyer Jr., according to Leary, " One of the 
most powerful people in the whole old-line estab- 
lishment game of cia disinformation and covert 
trickery." The Davis book has been driven out of 
circulation by a lawsuit, still in litigation, 
pressed by Graham, Bradlee, and company. Because 
( or using the excuse that ) the book is currently 
In litigation, the Houghton-Mif lin lawyers told 
Tim that any information taken from it could not 
be published in Flashbacks . " There is definitely 
an old-line, east-coast conspiracy among publish- 
ers, preventing these things from coming out... 
There's been a massive cover-up of the details of 
Mary Pinchot Meyer's life and death." 

Reflecting upon my short phone conversation 
with the media-labelled "drug guru", I realized 
that we had spoken about what is current in his 
life, and on his mind, and the word drug hadn't 
come up once. 

generation takes over In 1988! 

So, I'm very optimistic. That's my 
theory. Everything we've been through is 
genetically predictable. After Hiroshi- 
ma, the first baby-boom generation. Dr. 
Spock, it's all almost Inevitable, what 
we are going through. It's almost Inevi- 
table that we'll move out Into space, 
have life-extension, that we'd have per- 
sonal computers, and we'd learn to In- 
crease our intelligence. That's what I 
really believe. 

But as a realist, I am listening 
very hard to another position. One that 
is elucidated by many people, but I'm 
going to name one, Robert Helnleln, the 
science-fiction writer. He's a klnd-of 
old, crusty... 

J We 

are in 



lden Age 



we are 



to go 


tinum w 



e baby- 

boom generation 

takes over 

■\ in 



High Frontiers 25 

AUDIENCE MEMBER- He's a great writer! 

T.L.- Oh, yeah. He's wonderful. 

He says chat freedom, and the out- 
burst of human Intelligence that goes 
with freedom, the outburst of human in- 
telligence which can only exist in a 
climate of freedom occur rarely in human 
history. And only in moments when we 
move into a frontier, where we can get 
away from the KGB, the CIA, the Roman 
Empire, and so forth. So, we've been go- 
ing through a rare moment of history, 
and that's why Heinlein is in favor of 
moving into space. He thinks, at least 
that will give us the next step. He 
thinks that the human race is a literal 
race, you know, of freedom-loving, evo- 
lutionary people being pushed forward, 
always by the forces that want to keep 
things from evolving. Either way, I m in 
favor of space. I'm not talking about it 
as much now . . . 

W.N.- I noticed. That's why... 

T L.- I don't have to. When I first be- 
gan... remember, Eldridge? When Eldridge 
Cleaver and I were in the San Diego Mo- 
tel, Federal Motel, we were discussing 
space, and I was very impressed that El- 
dridge sat down and listened carefully 
co my reasons for saying that the human 
species was going into space. And El- 
dridge, who had been very politically 
oriented, agreed logically and at that 
moment became open-minded to the notion 
of space. But in 1976, when I came out 
of prison and I was going around talking 
to college audiences about space... Oh, 
poor Timothy, spaced-out again. Gimmie a 
drag on that cigarette, man. That s 
great stuff. " , 

And I kept on saying... There s 
this thing called a shuttle." When I 
talked about the Shuttle back in 76, 
people thought I was hallucinating 
(laughter). I don't have to talk about 
space now . Because the railroad has 
been laid down. Of course, first the 
military comes, and the buffalo hunters 
come, and the gamblers, and the school 
teachers, and the dancing girls, and the 
families (laughter). You know. We ve 
been through it a hundred times. 

W.N.- Tim, relating to something you 
said earlier... this progress to the 
point where things look bad because 
we're more aware. This didn't happen 
without a lot of energy going into it, a 
lot of giving by individuals like your- 
self and Eldridge Cleaver. I think that 
it's important not to think it's just a 
casual sort of evolutionary process that 
we've come into... 

T.L.- I think that what happened over 
the last 20 years would have happened 
without me, Eldridge Cleaver, Ram Dass, 
or even without (laughing) Gordon Liddy. 

W.N.- Do you think genetically... 

T.L.- We happened co be there at a cer- 
tain moment. Eldridge was there when 
black strength had to stand up and ex- 
press itself. That's a tough, tough as- 
signment to be given. I have a great 
deal of respect and honor for the women 
and men who stood up at that time, with 
Eldridge Cleaver. That was not a tea 
party, particularly in Oakland, Califor- 
nia, to be standing up for such concepts 
as black power. Now, it's been done. 

Somebody had to do it. It would have 
been done, if Eldridge hadn't, others 
would have. But Eldridge was certainly 
one person who was there at that moment 
in history, and passed on the torch, took 
the position, dealt with the power of 
the greatest empire in history, the 
American Empire, run by J. Edgar Hoover, 
Richard Nixon, and all those men, and 
escaped, and gave a history of how to 
deal with it. 

So, sure Eldridge made mistakes. I 
don't agree with everything he said 
then, or (laughing) says now, but I give 
him great honor as a person who was 
strong enough to have carried that bur- 
den at that time. It was a very, very 
courageous assignment that he was sent 
on. . . by the DNA code. 

Later, Eldridge, when you became a 
Christian, people would ask me on many 
talk shows... " Do you think Eldridge 
Cleaver is sincere that he's a born- 
agaln Christian?" So I'd say, " Well, is 
the Pope Catholic? I don't know. Is the 
Pope sincere? It's not for me to judge 
anyone eleea change of philosophy." 

W.N.- What is coming to mind is the word 
servant. I'm sensing a non-attached 
quality in what you're saying, somehow 
being a servant of evolution. If you had 
not, someone else would have been there. 
Which la a singularly humble thing to 
say. And I think that is also what you 

are implying about Eldridge or any one 
of us, that it takes the awareness of a 
servant, and a good servant anticipates 
the needs. . . 

T.L.- Well, I don't know if I speak for 
Eldridge here, but I certainly want to 
object to the word SERVANT! (Laughter) 
( I can see Eldridge arguing with me 
back there. ) But I do know what you 

mean . . T 

W.N.- You do know what I mean, though, l 
use servant in that sense of humility, 
of being able to serve, without inflict- 
ing your own will upon it... 

T.L.- Yeah. I want to apologize to you, 
because I kind of jumped the gun. I re- 
ally like your bringing out the word 
servant, because what I see happening 
now, just by reading Time Magazine, Sci- 
entific American, Omni, Co-Evolution 
Quarterly... we're in a position now 
where 5Z of our population can design 
and operate the computer-robots which 
will do all the work 10 or 20 times more 
efficiently and productively than human 
labor can do. 

Now, the old economists, the econo- 
mists from the industrial-age, say. 
" Well. 5Z will be the elite and the 
other 95Z are going to be doing ser- 
vice. " That means we're going to mas- 
sage each other, drive each other around 
in cabs, and wash up for the elite or... 
come on! Robots can do all that. ( Mas- 
sage, of course, is something that a ma- 
chine can't do. ) 

I'm thinking about this word, ser- 
vice. Because that word is tied to 
servant, which is actually the 19th cen- 
tury version of slave, isn't it? My re- 
action to this word, service, and what 
to do about the 95Z of us who don t de- 
sign and operate the computer-robots is, 
well, first of all, there's no reason 
why all of us can't spend 5Z of our time 
designing and operating the robots. So 
we don't have to have an elite up there, 
and the rest of us massaging and chauf- 
fering them around. Let's all of us take 
5Z of our time. Then we're faced with 
this problem. What are human beings go- 
ing to do with 95Z of their lives when 
they're not driven, by economic fears, 
( Applause ) Because it is humiliating 
and insulting to force a human being to 
do something that can be done much more 
efficiently by a machine! The answer, it 
seems to me, is not that we're gonna 
serve each other... 

I'd like to go back here... when I 
say that 5Z of our time can produce much 
more than is now being done by human 
WORK, we already have an example of that 
in American agriculture. American agri- 
culture has shown that a few people 
with technology, can produce so much 
food, so... much... food, so much food 
my friends that we're paying farmers not 
to produce food. Well, we can do the 
same thing with automobiles! Pay em not 
Co produce refrigerators. The same prin- 
ciple works, doesn't it? ( Applause and 
laughter ) So, it's not just acid talk 
about... " Hey. man. I'm not going to 
work. " It's already happened. 

So the function of human life for 
Chat 95Z of the time that we aren t de- 
signing and operating the machines •• • 
the purpose of human life is to stimu- 
late each other. To grow. To evolve. To 
personally develop. To entertain each 
other. To electrify each other. To amuse 
each other. Always to help each other 
grow. Isn't that right? (Applause) 
Right 1 

W.N.- How do we begin to do it? 
T.L.- How can we do what? 

W.N.- How can we begin to create that 
for ourselves? Because we can find the 
time. We aren't, most people, absolute 
slaves to a job, to drudgery. 

T L - No. That's absolutely true. You 
see, what happened with the baby-boom 
generation in the 1960s carried over to 
Che 70s'. People put the 70s' down, and 
3ay " That's the me generation. Nar- 
cissism. " I like to think of the 70s 
as the period where the baby-boom gener- 
ation was getting into touch with cur- 
rent reality. Everyone was discovering 
their selfhood and developing an effi- 
cient-excellent way of life. 

So, it is already happening. There 
was a Jankelovich poll. ( He polls for 
Time Magazine, he's not a liberal. Defi- 
nitely a conservative, culturally. ) The 
Jankelovich poll of the American public 
showed that 17Z of our citizens are to- 
tally committed to a quality-of-life/ 
personal-growth philoaophy. 

W.N.- Otherwise known aa simple living, 
isn't it? 

I.L.- Hell no. It's much more complicat- 
ed to grow than it is to punch a time- 

W.N.- But it's reducing your require- 
ments, essentially. 

T.L.- Not neccessarily. No. 

W.N.- SRI was the same thing and... 

T.L.- Individualizing, yeah. Anyway, 
let's not argue about this. 

W.N.- Self -determining. 

T.L.- Yeah. Right. There we go. Self-de- 
termining. Seventeen percent of the 
American people are totally committed to 
a lifestyle of personal growth. Sixty- 
three percent 'are pretty much that way, 
and that left 20Z who aren't. 

So Time Magazine ended this article 
by saying... ( puts on mock stern voice) 
" If America wishes to RE- Industrialize, 
something must be done about these re- 
sidual flower-power notions of the 
60s'." (laughter) Eighty percent of the 
people don't buy the protestant work- 
ethic! (laughter) 

So. it's happening. It really is 


happening. We're doing it here tonight. 
I've given over 100 interviews in the 
last 3 weeks, talking about this wonder- 
ful book. You cannot rush evolution. It 
takes 9 months to make a baby. In 1988, 
the baby-boom generation will be between 
the ages of 24 and 42, There's 76 mil- 
lion of you. You'll have America in your 
loving hands. There's no need for re- 
volt, revolution, or rebellion. . . You 
are it! In 1988, Tip O'Neill and Ronald 
Reagan will be in motorized wheelchairs. 
(Laughter and applause) 

AUDIENCE MEMBER- I wanted to ask you 
about something Ginsberg was saying, 
back in the 60s', that to solve certain 
psychological problems... they were in- 
capable of being solved chrough verbal 
message. And (indecipherable) wich 
drugs, and thac lead co a whole sequence 
of activity. But has that basic problem 
been helped in any way? In other words, 
getting back to the problem and getting 
at some of chose situations chac were 
noc available co us in our verbal anal- 
ysis (indecipherable). 

W.N.- Essentially, what you're asking Is 
whether drugs were able to transcend the 
verbal limitations. Or the limitations 
of the verbal in psychological problem- 

ANYTHING ?! (Laughter) 

T.L.- Yeah. We can leave drugs out of 
this. Yes. I think that I'm not alone. I 
think there are probably 50, 60. 70 mil- 
lion Americans who could answer your ex- 
tremely intelligent question with a 
rousing affirmative. In the last 20 
years, (because maybe we were just ready 
for it, like caterpillars waiting for 
the time to warm us up so we could de- 
velop into something different) we've 
all caught on to something that was not 
taught in the textbooks of psychology in 
the 1950s'. The notion that when you go 
within, you're not going to find a cess- 
pool of the unconscious. You're going to 
find an enormous reservoir of positive, 
constructive potentials. 

Now thia waa hinted at in Jung, and 
we have to give credit to a long line 

of... It was hinted at by Maslow. with 
his notion of hierarchies of... well, 
actually, personal growth. It was hinted 
at, in a very primitive way. by the 
first. I think the best. post-Freudian, 
Eric Erikson, who suggested that there 
were levels of identity. I say it was 
primitive because he was still limited 
to a very narrow Freudian corset. 

It was hinted at by the work of Har- 
ry Stack Sullivan and Carl Rogers when 
they talked about client-oriented thera- 
py. What a revolutionary Idea that was! 
I could sit here and list dozens of 
thoughtful women and men who were intui- 
ting what we all now know. The human 
brain and the human potential is liter- 
ally unlimited. And the function of hu- 
man life was, is, and always will be. 
to search within. To activate and ener- 
gize the great things that are within. 

Now the way it happened was that we 
had the drug experiences at Harvard and 
we looked around and said " Where has 
this been discussed. " There was nothing 
in the western psychological literature 
to tell us about this. So we found the 
Oriental literature of Buddhism. Our 
first book was The Tibetan Book Of The 
Dead , reprinted and rewritten as The 
Psychedelic Experience . Another one of 
our earlier books was The Psychedelic 
Prayers , which was based on the Tao Te 
Chlng . We realized that for thousands of 
years, this long tradition of gnostic, 
Hindu, Buddhist, transcendental, Pytha- 
gorean, Celtic, visionary, magickal.. I 
could go on giving you historical guide- 
posts. Anyway, for thousands of years 
there was this long, philosophic, sci- 
entific tradition which said " Go with- 
in'.' You know, the hermetic doctrine... 
what is within is without, what is below 
is above, and so forth. So it was bound 
to happen. And the drug part was bound 
to happen. What's important is not the 
drugs, but the fact that It has hap- 

I'm forced into the position of dis- 
cussing drugs more than I really want 
to. Believe me. I'd rather talk about 
personal computers. I'd rather talk 
about the fact that video games are the 
new legends, the new myths, and the new 
Homeric epics. Donkey Kong, the adven- 
ture* of Donkey Kong make Homer's Ulys- 
ses look like child's play, really. They 
never had to deal with 9 barrells coming 
at them in different levels, in 3 pen- 
sions, and god knows what (laughter). I d 
rather tell you about that. But I have 
to tell you about drugs (laughter). 

I'm not complaining about paradox or 
complexity, but on the other hand, I 
have to be as linear as possible, to 
make as much common sense as possible. 
And the drug situation is paradoxical. 
It has been tremendously complicated by 
the fact that, certainly in the last 50 
years in America, personal drug use has 
been the province of the outsiders, of 
the jazz musicians, of the Mexicans com- 
ing up, of the beatniks and then, of 
course, of the hippies. So drug use, for 
the last 50 years, has been cied to ir- 
reverence co auchority. Questioning au- 
thority. Sow I chink cocaine is a dumb 
drug. It makes you feel worse, usually. 
It's like a credit card chat you pay 
tremendous lncerest on (applause). 
( There may be a time when I've had a 
big dinner and too much wine, and I'm at 
a disco and I'm going to want to stay up 
all night... I might take a toot of co- 
caine, knowing it'll get me through an- 
other hour. ) Anyway, I still have to 
face the incredible fact that the ille- 
gal drug trade in America is 90 billion 
dollars. In the city of New York alone, 
45 billion dollars. Between 100,000 and 
300 000 people are employed in Sew York 
City alone, in the illegal drug trade. I 
think cocaine, heroin, pep, all the 
street drugs, stay away from. On the 
other hand, I'm totally impressed by the 
fact of this industry of $90 billion, 
and shall we say. another S40 billion of 
the anti-drug industry. So you add it 
all up, you're dealing with close to 
$150 billion dollars. It costs our tax- 
payers money to send the helicopters up 
to spray paraquat on Mendicino marijuana 

The drug culture today, anyone who 
takes any kind of drug, toots that dumb 
Peruvian nose-candy, is still doing 
something anti-establishment, in a time 
when Nancy Reagan's running the country. 
It gets complicated. 

On the other hand, there are no^ 
sides. There's no right or wrong. I'm 
not advocating anything. I'm just point- 
ing out facts about the social complex- 
ity involved in the use of drugs, and 
I'd rather not talk about it, but... 

W.N.- I think the thing that was 
questioned was whether the drugs are 
therapeutic in the sense of getting you 
beyond anything that psychotherapy can 
accomplish. Whether it can be done on an 

High Frontiers 26 

Individual basis or whether supervision 
of some sort Is neccessary. 

T.L.- Was that your question? 


T.L.- I thought your question was If I 
learned something which had to do with 
new psychological... You see, this con- 
cept of Inner potential... that's a tre- 
mendous breakthrough. That's the break- 
through that has happened. It has taken 
psychology from Its primitive 1950s 
status to this Incredible... 

W.N.- So It's a new psychology that 
you're talking about, actually. 

T.L.- Yes. Exactlyl So I was adresslng 
that aspect of your question. Now you're 
( Will Nofke ) asking me about the drug 
thing. But you've already asked me that 
question several times. 

W.N.- Yes I have. Yes. I don't need any- 
more on that. 

T.L.- You're not going to get the answer 
you want so. . . 

W.N. - One other question that came up 
( from the audience ) was they'd like to 
know more about your cosmology. 

AUDIENCE MEMBER- Do you find it hard 
work or what ? ! 

T.L.- I was released from prison in 
1976. In the subsequent years, I've 
written 7 books. In the first 5 of them; 

Exo-Psychology , The Game Of Life , Neuro- 
politlcs . What Does Wo Man Want , and The 
Intelligence Agents . I've spelled out 
over and over again, what I think is one 
of the most systematic, carefully 
thought out cosmologies, based upon tne 
current scientific knowledge (Laughing) 
of the week. Or the century. It is a ve- 
ry" disciplined, systematic theory of 
evolution. Granted that it's primitive. 
Granted it's premature. But it's the 
first step in having a scientific theory 
of evolution which ties together person- 
al evolution and species evolution. 

So my cosmology has been presented 
in these books. Also, I summarized this 
cosmology in the back pages of Flash- 
backs . 

I think of Flashbacks as a fantastic 
sort-of b-movle, cosmic detective story, 
with CIA and Gordon Liddy and Eldridge 
Cleaver in 4 different roles. It's bet- 
ter than Monty Python. But also woven 
through it, particularly in the foot- 
notes, I have presented a capsule summa- 
ry of my cosmology about the 24 stages 
of human evolution. 

I think that in the 21st century, 
they will look back upon the last 20 
years, or the last 40 years of the 20th 
century. And I think there's some chance 
that these books I've talked about will 
be seen the way we look back upon Py- 
thagoras and the early Greek philoso- 
phers, as terribly primitive but still 
prophetic steps which created the in- 
credible. Joyous, intelligent reality of 
the 2lst century. So that's 25 words or 
less about my cosmology. 

W.N.- What I'm picking up on is the re- 
lationship between personal and planeta- 
ry development, and I think that's one 
of the things that's in awareness at 
this time. They have to co-exist. You 
can't go overboard in one direction or 
the other. You can't be too concerned 
about the tangible planetary aspects, 
nor can you be too concerned about your 
own personal growth. Somehow the truth 
lies between the two. That's, I think, 
something that's making profound changes 
now, and modifying behavior. 

T.L?- Yeah. I'd like to continue the 
beautiful riff that you started (laugh- 
ter) . I think that the future is going 
to see an interesting combination of 
the Japanese experiment and the American 
experiment. I've been really freaked-out 
and puzrled by Japan for many, many 
years. I couldn't figure it out. I went 
to Japan. What are these people all 
about? There seems to be no individuali- 
ty there. Although they obviously have 
this incredible, almost telepathic abil- 
ity to work as a hive, as a commune, as a 
collectivity. And everything that we 
don't like about collectivities and com- 
munes is there. Yet, there Is no question 
that the experiment works. 

Now, I see that Japan, as an island, 
almost like a space colony, has a cer- 
tain. . . Switzerland is very similar to 
Japan. I spent 2H years in exile, 2 of 
them there. Switzerland has the advantage 
of being a little mountain Island, sur- 
rounded by a world of barbarians. That's 
what it looks like to a Swiss. So both 
the Swiss and the Japanese are insular. 

The one thing that struck M about 
Switzerland, and I've sensed It in Japan, 
too, is the tremendous caring. In Switz- 
erland, if you throw a piece of paper ^n 
the street, they'll scold you. Because, 
you know, we're all In It together, and 
we're here to take care of this wonder- 
ful little country of ours, this little 
island of ours, this little spaceship of 
ours. But Switzerland is the boringeat 
country in the world! (Laughter) Because 
they're so busy cleaning. 

Now, let's cut to America. America is 
the absolute bastion of Individuality. 
That's why you can't walk down the street 
at night. Some individual is likely to 
mug ya, right? (Laughter) But America is 
the ultimate experiment in that. People 
came here because they thought it was the 
country where you could be an Immigrant 
and you could become a millionaire, or 
everyone could be president. So the great 
gift/treasure of America is that it has 
always preserved the Jef fersonian-Socrat- 
lc notion of individual growth. 

But I've always felt this conflict 
between the Japanese collectivity and the 
American individualism. Now I see that 
what Is going to happen, I think, is that 
we will see that we have to develop that 
hive, telepathic, we're-all-ln-it-togeth- 
er sense that the Japanese and the Swiss 
have. . . but the function of the Swiss 
hive is to make money. And the function 
of the Japanese hive is co produce 
Sonys (laughter) . 

What we have to do Is say " Yes. We 
want to have a collectivity where we're 
all brothers and sisters working togeth- 
er for the lifeboat. But the function of 
the state is not to make Swiss francs or 
Japanese yen. The function of the state 
is to work together in this hive-collec- 
tivity to stimulate in every way possi- 
ble, the growth of the individual. I 
think that's the hope for the future of 
the human spirit right now. 

Albert Hofmann cont. 

vision, at that time, Chat it would ever 
be used as a recreational drug, as an 
inebriant . 

A.H.- I never would have believed! 
(Audience laughter) This experience was 
so overwhelming and so deep that I 
thought it would always be used just to 
provoke a kind of religious experience, 
not just for pleasure. I immediately re- 
alized that this agent must be used cau- 
tiously, and with awe and respect, oth- 
erwise it could produce dangerous ef- 
fects. That, I realized immediately. 
Then, in the 60s', it became ray problem 
child. The first 10, 15 years, it was 
used under controlled conditions, in 
psychiatry, in neurology, as a useful 
tool, and the first experiments in hu- 
mans were made in the Sandoz laboratory, 
with volunteers. We used small ddses and 
we made all kinds of tests under labora- 
tory conditions. But then I had the 
feeling this is not the right setting, 
this laboratory, and we could get much 
more out of this compound in private 
conditions with friends, with music, and 
with proper conditions, and we had beau- 
tiful experiences. This was happening 
already in '49. 1 knew how to handle 
these substances through the 50s' and up 
into the 60s' 

Then came the news from the United 
States that people jumped out of the 
window, stood in front of a running car, 
that they had made suicide. Then, it be- 
came a problem child. And, of course, 
what appeared in the newspapers, and in 
the magazines, and in the mass media 
were mainly the negative aspects. The 
management of our company was, of 
course, not very happy about this devel- 
opment. In Europe, we had no problem. 
They had no such accidents. 

W.N.- Was there broadscale lay-usage in 

A.H.- Not so much. In any case, we had 
no accidents. People who used it, used 
it in an appropriate way. 

W.N.- Well, certainly in the United 
States, there were a number of people 
that were trying to serve as guides, and 
give the background that was neccessary 
to have a safe trip. 

A.H.- Yes I Yes! Yes! And I think, now, 
we never hear about any accidents with 
lsd. I think people who use it now, know 
it, and know how to use it in the right 

W.N.- I'm aware of the fact that when 
lsd was withdrawn from the marketplace, 
from availability for professional use, 
that any number of substitutes were at- 
tempted. All sorts of body therapies, 
psychoanalysis, all of the traditional 
things were repeated, somehow. Other 
substances that were not on the black- 
list were tried, and I don't know of any 
thaL succeeded. They all seem to havt 
greater negative aspects than lsd does, 
used under proper circumstances. 

A.H.- I would agree, with the exception 
of psilocybin, the mushroom constituent. 

W.N.- Now there you have an organic sub- 

A.H.- In fact, lsd is almost organic. 
I'll tell you the story. Lsd belongs to 
the sacred drugs of Mexico, because of 
its constitution. Fifteen years after 
the discovery of lsd, I investigated the 
ololiuqui. That is a very ancient sacred 
drug of the Indians, and what did I find 
there? I found the lysergic acid amide. 
Even if you are not a chemist, you see 
it's the same. Lysergic acid diethyla- 
mide, lysergic acid amide, nearly the 
same components of the active principles 
of ololiuqui. That means that lsd is no- 
thing else than the small chemical modi- 
fication of the sacred drug of Mexico. 
Therfore, I was right when I had the 
feeling that it was a sacramentel drug 
right from the very beginning. That was 
even confirmed by its chemical constitu- 
tion, by its chemical structure. Nobody 
believed it when I found this in morning 
glory seeds, and reported it for the 
first time, at Australia's international 
conference on natural products , and 
told them that, " We have, in the labor- 
atory, all kinds of lysergic acid deriv- 
atives." They said " You have missed 
something. It is impossible." Because 
it is a kind of natural law that you can 
say that if such-and-such a compound is 
contained in this plant , and found in 
another plant, they are related botani- 
cally. What was quite unusual, unheard 
of, in fact, lsd is a derivative of a 
fungus, of the ergot fungus. And ololiu- 
qui is a convonvulus plant, it is of the 
morning glory family, a flowering plant. 
It is quite of a different section of 
the plant kingdom. This has never been 
found before! It is the absolute excep- 
tion in chemotoxonomy, that you find the 
same chemical structures in a lower fun- 
gus and a higher plant. The others did- 
n't believe it, but lsd is the great ex- 
ception in all of this. In professional 
readings of the botanical books, you see 

that this is the greatest exception that 
you find. So when I found these com- 
pounds, I didn't believe it. I repeated 
the experiment 3 times before I pub- 
lished it. But it was finally confirmed. 
Now, it is accepted, of course. 

W.N.- You've mentioned peyote and mesca- 
line, and the greatest difference, per- 
haps, is that lsd ts, milligram for mil- 
ligram, what, 5 to 10,000 times strong- 

A.H.- Yeah, yeah. You need a half-a-gram 
of mescaline, and you need maybe 0.1 to 
0.05 milligrams only of lsd. It's about 
10,000 times more active, by weight. 

W.N.- Wouldn't that make it much more 
difficult to gauge how much you should 

A.H.- Yes. It can be very difficult to 
tell the dosage. The dosage is impor- 
tant. And that is one thing which may 
have been the reason, what caused the 
bad accidents. People did not get the 
right dosage and they did not get the 
right material. You need to be a profes- 
sional to produce lsd. If you had lyser- 
gic acid that was available at the be- 
gining of the 60s'... now the restric- 
tions are the same as lsd itself, but 
when you had pure lysergic acid, it was 
not too difficult to prepare, under nor- 
mal conditions, lsd. But then, to pre- 
pare it in its stable form, you need to 
be an expert. It is very easily de- 
stroyed by oxygen, and by light. You 
have to protect it. At Sandoz, we pre- 
pared ampules with 100 micrograms, and 
these ampules were absolutely 100% free 
of oxygen, filled with nitrogen, so then 
it's stable. But in this black market 
lsd, there you put it on a blot paper 
and you have a big surface, access to 
oxygen, and it is very soon destroyed. I 
have analyzed quite a lot of black mar- 
ket lsd, and very, very rarely have I 
really found lsd. 

W.N.- Tell me, during those first years 
after the discovery, I assume Sandoz was 
not particularly interested in marketing 
a transformative drug, a sacred drug. 
There must have been other uses that 
they saw for this substance. 

A.H.- Yes. It was intended to be used as 
an adjunct in psychoanalysis and psy- 
chotherapy. That was the most important 
application. And this is one of the main 
characteristics of the lsd experience, 
that the patient could come out of his 
encapsulated ego, get out of his prob- 

High Frontiers 27 

lems, that he can get better contact 
with his doctor, with his psychiatrist, 
and then, enhanced adjustability. He can 
be deeply influenced. Another effect 
that was important as an adjunct to psy- 
choanalysis was that, under certain con- 
ditions, repressed or forgotten experi- 
ences come out of the subconscious and 
become conscious again. And that is just 
what is attained in psychoanalysis, to 
become conscious of traumatic experi- 
ences which have been repressed or for- 
gotten. As soon as they are conscious, 
you can work with them. Lsd was not in- 
tended as a medicament. It was intended 
as an adjunct, a help, an aid in psycho- 
analysis. But the healing process must 
come by the spirit of the psychiatrist. 
This is a spiritual thing. Lsd is just 
an adjunct. It helps. It opens the per- 
sonality, and loosens the I-you barrier. 
That is very important. It loosens the 
subject-object barrier and gives you a 
feeling of openness, and the feeling of 
unity with the universe, with your fel- 
low man or fellow woman. 

These effects can be helpful, also, 
without psychoanalysis and without psy- 
chotherapy. But that was the medical in- 
dication. That was the reason why Sandoz 
distributed it all over the world for 

W.N.- Do you know if those psychiatrists 
who used lsd in therapy had ingested lsd 

A.H.- Yes. And it was suggested that the 
psychiatrist should use it to get inside 
the world of his patient. That was sug- 
gested by Sandoz. 

W.N.- Is there any way to tell what 
you're getting on the black market? 

A.H.- I could analyze it in the labora- 
tory. But it is difficult. I'll give you 
an example of what happened in Basel. 
Two young men came to the hospital in a 
coma. One died. The other recovered and 
said he had taken lsd. There was a lit- 
tle sample of this, and I analyzed it. 
It was pure strychnine! So these things 
happened, and then they decide that peo- 
ple had died by having taken lsd. Before 
I wrote my book, I, again, tested the 
whole literature. One does not know the 
lethal dose of lsd! Not one person has 
ever died from lsd itself! That is a ve- 
ry strange situation. Because the dif- 
ference between an active dose and a 
toxic dose is so large with no other 
compound. If you take, let's say, 10 
times as much alcohol as you need to get 
really stone drunk, then you die. Or, if 
you take 3 times as much heroin as you 
need for a good flash, then you die. But 
with lsd, we know not the lethal dose. 
We have tests with animals, and there we 
have an interval of one to 10,000, from 
active to lethal dose. This is the least 
toxic compound that exists. You have so 
many people who died from alcohol, who 
died from all kinds of medicaments. I 
think millions of people have taken lsd. 
Not in one case, did a person die from 
lsd itself. 

W.N.- Do you see a time when lsd will be 
available again, for use in medicine and 

A.H.- I hope so, I hope that it will be 
possible. I would not say that it abso- 
lutely would be free. But under con- 
trolled conditions, it should beome a- 
vailable. Psychiatrists could have ac- 
sess to lsd, and if somebody would like 
to have an lsd experience, he should 
have the possibility, under controlled 
conditions and medical supervision, to 
have such an experience. I think that 
would be the next step in our society. 
I could also imagine that it would be 
made available for meditation sessions, 
under conditions where all these acci- 
dents cannot happen. 

W.N.- It seems that, in our society, it 
would have to come back through the sci- 
entific and medical communities, and 
gain a reputable status, in order to be 
freed-up to be used for transformation. 

A.H.- I think in these, sort of, primi- 
tive societies, there we have a model of 
how to use this kind of compound. There 
is the curandero, the priest-doctor, who 
is the one to distribute it. He is the 
guide. He must be prepared. Before you 
can use it, you must know how to. You 
must be ceremonial clean, by abstinance, 
praying, and fasting, and then teonana- 
codtl, the sacred mushroom will bring 
you near to God. Otherwise, it may make 
you insane. They know it. They had the 
experience for 2,000 years. That could 
be a model for us. I think we should 
learn these things in our society, we 
just have not... oh, the priest-doctors 
of our society are the psychiatrists. 
Our psychiatry is still very rational 
minded. The deep religious background of 
the human mind is not respected as it 
should be. It is just a subject-object 
approach to the whole problem. 

The transpersonal psychology is, I 
hope, approaching another attitude to 
this kind of agent, which should not be 
named drug. One should never speak of 
drugs because of the bad connotations 
with drugs. We should never use the word 
drug for these kinds of agents. Also, the 
word hallucinogens is not so good. Hallu- 
cinations are not the most important 
things about these kinds of agents. We 
have "psychedelics", coined by Humphrey 
Osmond. It is a rather good word. And now 
we have entheogens. Entheogens. That 
means bringing you nearer to god. That 
would also be easier for the government. 
If the government would see that it is 
just not a drug. Because so many bad 
things which are attributed to lsd are 
not from lsd. 

I could tell you a story which hap- 
pened in Basel, the town where I live. A 
very well known young writer published, 
in the Basel newspaper, a report. He had 
been in Mexico, had attended a session 
with mescaline, and was very deeply im- 
pressed. He came home and wrote an ar- 
ticle, and said... " It is very, very 
strange. I had such a beautiful experi- 
ence in Mexico. In Mexico, the drug pro- 
duces such wondrous effects, and here, 
my friends die in the bathroom. But all 
his friends who died, died because they 
had taken heroin. So he said THE DRUG, he 
speaks about THE DRUG, and you should not 
speak... that does not exist. Alcohol ex- 
ists, nicotine, heroin, lsd, but each 
single agent has specific properties, 
specific possibilities for application, 
and specific dangers. 

W.N.- The quality of these entheogens, or 
psychedelics, is that it does show you a 
different reality. That makes me question 
whether the government would ever see the 
possibility of making these drugs avail- 

A.H.- I think the generation which is now 
representative of the government would 
not see, but now younger people that have 
had the experience with lsd and who have 
grown up and who now become leaders of 
the country may see that you can change 
the situation 

Yes. The young generation become the 
president and change the country. ( audi- 
ence laughter and applause. ) 

I will tell you a story about this 
presidency. I have had, and still have 
many visitors coming to see and speak 
with me. One happened when I was at work 
at Sandoz many years ago. Somebody 
knocked at the office door, and finally I 
opened it, there was a beautiful girl, 
blonde hair, blue eyes, long dress, a 
hippie. I asked, " How could you come in 
and who are you? " She said, " I've come 
from the United States. My name is Jane. 
I came just to visit you. " And I said, 
" How is it possible that you could... we 
have 3 control posts, the main gate, and 
then the gate to the laboratory, and with 
such unusual dress? " And she said; " Oh, 
I am an angel. I can pass everywhere. 
( Audience laughter. ) And then she said, 
" I have come to visit you. You must help 
me to give lsd to our president. " ( It 
was Johnson, at that time.) I was not 
able to help her. Maybe if we had suc- 
ceeded, the whole course of the United 
States would have been changed. ( Audi- 

ence laughter. ) She was such a nice 
girl, and she was so hopeful that I could 
be able to do this. 

W.N.- I wonder if you could talk a bit 
about your conception of the other reali- 

A.H.- I just gave a lecture at Santa Bar- 
bara titled the transmitter-reciever con- 
cept of reality. After I had this experi- 
ence with lsd, of course, I was quite 
concerned about what reality is, because 
until then I had believed there is just 
one reality, and that any other reality 
just doesn't exist. But then I knew there 
exists another reality. I was thinking 
about this problem, that we are scien- 
tists, rational men, we want a rational 
explanation of this phenomenon and, of 
course, during my lsd experience the ex- 
terior world had not changed. That was 
clear. So there was something inside that 
must have changed. That gave me the con- 
cept of reality as the product of the 
transmitter and the reciever. The trans- 
mitter is the exterior world, the whole 
universe including the whole material 
world, including, even, our whole body. 
The reciever is our conscious-making 
spiritual center, that inner spiritual 
room, and the antennae are our 5 sense 

Let us speak about the optical pic- 
ture of reality. What is outside, regard- 
ing the optical picture, we have electro- 
magnetic waves, the wavelengths of ul- 
trashort rentgen waves up to middle-long 
radio waves. It is all the same, all the 
electromagnetic base, just at different 
wavelengths, and from this enormous spec- 
trum our reciever can only realize a very 
small spectrum of 0.4 - 0.7 millimicrons. 
Within this small spectrum we are sensi- 
tive to, we are able to experience it as 
light. And within this small spectrum, we 
can recieve wavelengths of 0.4 as blue 
and 0.7 as red. We say," That is red. " 
But that happens inside. It's a transfor- 
mation. We must realize that we have the 
screen inside. Everybody creates our own 
reality. Everybody has cosmogonic potency 
inside. Everybody is really the creator 
of a world of his own, that is to say the 
acoustical world. What exists outside? 
Outside exists compressions and dilations 
of the air. You cannot play music in a 
vacuum. It's just wave-like compressions 
and dilations of the air. There exists a 
large spectrum of such kinds of waves, 
but we have only from 20,000 to 25,000 
vibrations per second which we can per- 
cieve as sound. The rest doesn't exist. 
Therefore, what we see, our beautiful, 
our colorful world, does not exist out- 
side. What exists outside is matter and 
energy and nothing else... matter in all 
kinds of forms. Living forms or inorganic 

What we know from the exterior world 
has been disclosed by scientific re- 
search. Objectively, there exists an ex- 
terior world . But we can only disclose 
of it what we experience with our sense 
organs or by scientific treatments. We 
can pick up radio waves. And then smaller 
waves than sound, the optical field. So 
you have a screen with sound which we can 
hear, and these colors which we can see. 
But if our eyes would be sensitive to ra- 
dio waves, you could see to Europe from 
here. If our eyes would be sensitive to 
ultra-short rentgen waves, objects would 
seem transparent and this transparent re- 
ality would be as real as our every day 
reality. It shows that what we experience 
under lsd is not an illusion, not delu- 
sion. We have just opened our reciever. 
Our inner reciever is transformed and 
then we see another aspect of the tran- 
cendental reality. 

W.N.- None the less real. 

A.H.- Yes. Yes. As real as the other. 

High Frontiers 


Terence McKenna cont. 

emerge, about what, exactly, it 
is. Are we dealing here with an 
aspect, an autonomous psychic 
entity, as the Jungians would 
style it - a sub-self that has 
slipped away from the control of 
the ego? Or, are we dealing with 
something like a species over- 
mind, a kind of collective in- 
tellechy? Or, are we, in fact, 
dealing with an alien intelli- 
gence with all that implies? 
It's not an easy question to 
answer. It's not even an easy 
question to grapple with, be- 
cause the phenomenon does not 
manifest itself except at doses 
high enough that, taking now 
psilocybin, the drug can be dis- 
tinguished from any other drug. 
That would be my personal defi- 
nition of the effective dose of 
a drug. You should be able to 
tell it from any other drug. 
W N.- There are certain paral- 
lels that are quite obvious, and 
one of them that immediately 
comes to mind is Saint Joan 
hearing voices and gaining di- 
rection. Granted, she was a farm 
girl and perhaps she was growing 
mushrooms in the back yard. 
There seems to be, throughout 
history, within the realms of 
religious experience, the hear- 
ing of voices, and it's always 
attributed to "god", whatever 
that image is for the individual 
who is experiencing it. That ex- 
perience does not... well, nec- 
essarily come from the ingestion 
of any drug. It can come 
through some other aspect of al- 
tering human consciousness. 
T.M.- Right. It always arises 
through a shift in the i° te ^ or 
chemistry of the body and the 
brain, but this can be induced 
by drugs, or stress, or a person 
or family line can simply have a 
predeliction for these kinds of 
states. You're quite right. Re- 
ligion, understood in pre-modern 
terms, is essentially mans' re- 
sponse to the problem of interi- 
or prompting. Not everyone has 
interior prompting, but enough 
people have it that it is a cul- 
ture-shaping phenomenon, if not, 
in fact, a culture-steering phe- 
nomenon. Julian Jaynes discussed 
the possibility that what we 
call ego consciousness is actu- 
ally a phenomenon as recent as 
Homeric times. Before that, 
everyone heard voices. 

And in stressful 
situations, everyone had resource 
to a kind of automatic reflex 
which they called a God, but 
which was, in fact, the self not 
yet reigned in to the control ot 
the ego. In other words, the ego 
is an invention of man, to allow 
us to transcend the ant-hill type 
societies that characterized the 
pre-Homeric world. I have no 
trouble with this. Gordon Wasson 
has discussed it. However, it 
certainly is not a mainstream 
view. Religion, for the past five 
hundred years, has been a heirar- 
chal pyramid where theologies in- 
terpreted dogma. This interpre- 
tation was handed down through a 
hierarchy, to the faithful. I 
think religious hierarchies are 
very unsettled by the idea of di- 
rect revelation. Nevertheless, 
this phenomenon is certainly 
thriving in pre-literate cultures 
all over the world. We discovered 
in dealing with this, that the 
only people you could talk to 
about it, who seemed to have fa- 
miliarity with it, were shaman. 
And they say, "Yes. Of course. 
This is how information is ob- 
tained in that dimension from 
helping spirits, or hindering 
spirits." In other words, the 
idea of autonomous alien intelli- 

gences contacted in the mental 
dimension seem to them common- 
place. I think it probably is- I 
think that western culture has 
taken a long idiosyncratic detour 
away from the spirit, and we are 
just now beginning to realize 
that we may have lost something. 
In fact, we do not represent the 
pinnacle of understanding of the 
nature of reality. We have very 
interesting maps of, say, the 
heart of the atom, or the far 
reaches of the universe. But in 
the areas closest to home, our 
own minds, our own experiences of 
ourselves and each other, I be-_. 
lieve these primitive cultures, 
by being phenomenologis t , by not 
being encumbered by technical ap- 
paratus or abstract theories of 
what's going on, come closer to 
the mark. In other words, they 
are folk psychiatrists, folk psy- 
coanalysts, who leave us far be- 
hind. Many anthropologists have 
commented on the absence of seri- 
ous mental disease in these pre- 
literate cultures. I believe that 
the mediation of the shaman, and 
through him, the contact to this 
centering logos, this source of 
information or gnosis, is probab- 
ly the cause of this ability to 
heal psychological disorders, or 
to hold them to a minimum 

physical activities... psycho- 
physical manipulations of con- 
sciousness, seem to be safe 
ground, acceptable as areas for 
investigation. But I see this in- 
credible bias against using chem- 
ical means, even the organic ones 
you speak of . 

T.M.- Yes. Well, I think there's 
a very strong Calvanistic bias 
against free lunch. The idea that 
you could achieve a spiritual in- 
sight without suffering, soul 
searching, flagellation, and that 
sort of thing, is very abhorent 
to people, because they believe 
that the vision of these higher 
dimensions should be vouchsafed 
to the good, and probably to them 

ra recently with Hofmann, 
and someone came up to him 
and said of lsd, " I want 
to congratulate you for 
your invention. I believe 
it was the only joyous in- 
vention of the twentieth 
century," which may be 
true, although I said, 
" What about animation?" I 
hear people saying there 
may be another pass at the 
psychedelic experience as a 
social phenomenon. I cer- 
tainly hope, if there is, 
those of us who went 
through the nineteen-six- 
ties will have processed 
that experience and have 
learned the lessons from 
it. I think that these 
things should not be taken 

tnings shuuj.« "~w 

P , , . . \ in large groups. I think 

One mans' symbolism is l that C he most fruitful way 
another mans' techn ology j' to approach the | P»y c ^ d *J;: 

>jc experience is in an en 

. •. _1 __ » * V»nr not" 

W N - You mentioned something in 
relation to organized religion. I 
think western "churchianity has 
been very successful at estab- 
lishing its turf, by instilling 
fear, doubt, and suspicion of 
anything that comes from inner 
sources. It's established a cri- 
teria that says, "If it isn t in 
the scriptures, it is to be ig- 
nored and suspected as being from 
a dark force." There is * dis- 
tinct denial of the validity of 
personal experience. And I find 
that a great many people look at 
the drug experience as highly 
suspect, highly dangerous, uncon- 
trollable. How have you found 
people deal with this? 

T M.- Well, it's uncontrollable 
to the degree that it's not well 
understood. These pre-literate 
cultures have an unbroken tradi- 
tion of shamanic understanding 
and ethno-medecine that reaches 
back to the paleolithic and be- 
yond. We have nothing comparable 
to that. So people in our culture 
who get into deep water with 
these drugs, who do they turn to? 
Who do they ask with certain 
knowledge? In Peru, we saw people 
who were naive about ayahuasca. 
People who had come from Lima for 
the experience got into the place 
where they were definitely having 
a bad trip. But the shaman is 
able to come over to them, and by 
blowing tobacco smoke over them, 
chanting, things which appear to 
us to be symbolic, nevertheless 
act with the same efficacy as if 
the person had been given a shot 
of demerol. So one mans symbol- 
ism is another mans' technology. 
This should be born in mind when 
dealing with these cultures. How 
things appear to oneself may not 
be how they appear to the People 
who are enmeshed in them. Unless 
you shed your language and enter 
into these cultures entirely, you 
will always have the point of 
view of a stranger and an outsid- 
er . 

W N.- Even in that aspect of so- 
ciety which might be categorized 
as new age, for want of a better 
term, where there's a great deal 
of breaking away from dogmatic 
upbringing and movement into di- 
rect experience, the drug thing 
is suspect. So, the investigation 
of such things as working with 
the kundalini. hypnosis, mantras. 

vironment almost, but not 
formally, one of sensory 
deprivation. In other 
words, you should lay down 
in complete darkness and 
silence and watch the back 
of your eyelids. I'm amazed 
how exotic this advice 
seems to me, or seems to 
other people. It seems to 
me that common sense would 
lead you to do that. After 
all, you're trying to ob- 
serve a mental phenomenon. 
So, going to a rock con- 
cert, or even listening to 
Beethoven's Fifth on ear- 
phones is... these things 
exist autonomously of the 
mental phenomenon. To see 
the mental phenomenon un- 
contaminated by outside 
sources of information, you 
must put yourself in a sit- 
uation where it can fully 

only after death. It is very 
alarming to people to think that 
you could take a drug like psilo- 
cybin, or dmt, and have these 
kinds of experiences. Neverthe- 
less, it is a fact of reality, 
and we are only now beginning to 
come to terms with it. I don t 
believe that these things are a 
substitute for spiritual prac^ 
tice. On the other hand, I don t 
believe that spiritual practice 
could ever be a substitute for 
these experiences. I scoured In- 
dia and Indonesia and a number of 
other places, and I found these 
traditions you mentioned, the 
tantra of kundalini, the trance- 
dancing in Bali. All of these 
things exist, but they are under 
the control of priesthoods and 
embedded in traditions. You al- 
most have to accept the mind-set 

to have the experience. They are uaClon wneie *.- --- 
all so very elusive. The drug ex- manifest itself. And at the 
perience, on the other hand, is effective doses of these 
not It is, in fact, overpower- drugs, I guaranty anyone, 
ing! Certainly, with the trypta- lt ig not a boring experi- 
mines, there is nothing elusive ence p erh aps too many peo- 
about it. It is the great convin- ple have med itated. So they 
cer. So, these things are going imag ine it Is like medita- 
te have to be integrated into the tlon It is the exact anti- 
culture that is developing, with- thesis of meditation. It 
out a sense of guilt. With a ig> ln fact , to leave your 
sense that they point the way to- body and t0 journey into 
ward something. I think it was nen tal space, which is an 
Aldous Huxley who called them area at least as large as 
"gratuitous graces," explaining outer space. In fact, the 
that they were neither neccessary distlnct ion between these 
nor sufficient for salvation, but fcwo may be cu i t ural conven- 
rhev were nevertheless, a mira- t ion. You journey into a 
"e! deployed field of informa- 

tion which appears to be 
w N - You make a strong point for llght ye ars in extent. This 
set and setting as a part of the can only be done if the ex- 
drug experience, that they re not terior input has been 
to be taken lightly or used re- brough t to a minimum. Then 
creationally, that they need to yQU gee what B lake saw, and 
be dealt with, with some degree what Me ister Ekhardt saw, 
of seriousness. And it's prefera- and what St . Joh n of the 
hie to have someone available to Cro88 saw . And you may not 
' serve as a guide. I'll also 

be interviewing Timothy 
Leary. There's a case of 
someone who I'm not quite 
sure what his attitude may 
be. Whether it's one of fun 
and games at any cost, or 
whether it's intensely ser- 
ious . 

T.M.- Well, I think he's a 
man who probably has had 
ample opportunity to change 
his mind. The euphoria of 
the sixties, the assumption 
of the intellectuals around 
Huxley and Humphrey Osmond 
that all that need be done 
is lay this before people 
and humanity will trans- 
form itself, was terribly 
naive. Although, only in 
hindsight, since people 
had never stood at a cul- 
tural crossroads quite like 
that. I was in Santa Barba- 

be able to bring to bear on 
these things the kind of 
insight they did, but, on 
the other hand, no man can 
measure the ocean, not 
Meister Eckhardt or anybody 
else. So it is not to meas- 
ure the ocean, but merely 
to be measured by it, to 
confront it, to be in it. 

I think these drugs 
have had, are having, and 
will have an ultimate im- 
pact on human history. They 
may, in fact, be the cause 
of human history. We're so 
familiar with the doctrine 
of evolution, the idea that 
we descended from the apes 
over a long period of time, 
that we tend to overlook 
how odd a creature man re- 
ally is. Man is a very odd 
creature. And to have aris- 
en, in fifty or one-hundred 


High Frontiers 29 

thousand years, from the 
chipping of flint to the 
launching of the space 
shuttle and the hurling of 
these instruments out of 
the solar system, it seems 
almost preposterous to 
maintain that the forces 
and facts of nature, as we 
know them, could have al- 
lowed us to do what we are 
doing. Instead, I take a 
very pre-modern view, which 
is, we are in league with 
the demiurgos. We are the 
children of a force which 
we can barely imagine. And 
it is calling us out of the 
trees and across the plains 
of history toward itself. 
This process is taking ten, 
fifteen, twenty thousand 
years. . . an instant. The 
lifetimes of many individu- 
als come and go, but nature 
does not act from the point 
of view of the individual. 
It acts from the point of 
view of the species, and on 
that scale, hardly a moment 
has passed since there was 
nothing happening on this 
planet except, as I said, 
the chipping of flint and 
pharmacology. Pharmacology 
preceeded agriculture, be- 
cause the property of 

This is the chaos at 
the end of history. 

plants was understood long 
before the husbandry of 
plants was understood. 
These visions that are con- 
veyed on psilocybin, vi- 
sions of enormous machines 
in orbit, and distant plan- 
ets, and strange creatures, 
and vast o rgano-mechan is t ic 
landscapes, we can hardly 
process. You don't know 
whether you are walking 
around inside an enormous 
instrument, or inside an 
organism. We are barely 
able to assimilate these 
things. Yet, these are the 
visions that the guiding 
force, the overmind of the 
species, if you will, is 
releasing into historical 
time at the present moment. 
As it released the differ- 
ential calculus a couple of 
hundred years ago. As it 
released all the great ad- 
vances in human history. 
And if you study the histo- 
ry of scientific or techni- 
cal advance, it has this 
character of revelation. 
The people who have the re- 
al breakthroughs always 
say... " It was just handed 
to me. One morning, it was 
there." Descartes invented 
the calculus while lieing 
in bed one morning. Leib- 
nitz was doing the same 
thing a few hundred miles 
away, and they didn't even 
know each other. So I see 
that over the millenia, 
there has been a dialogue 
between the individual self 
and the other, between the 
collective self and the 
other. We have called this 
God. Priests have gotten 
control of it, and freight- 
ed it down with all kinds 
of thou-shalts and thou- 
shalt-nots, but the real 
religious experience is not 
about that. It's about the 
dialogue with the logos, 
where it can lead you, what 
it can show you. So now, 
when we as a species are 
about to leave the planet, 
this thing re-emerges with 

great intensity. Because we 
are not going to leave this 
planet untransf ormed within 
our minds. The idea that 
the transformation of outer 
and inner space are sepa- 
rate areas of concern is 
totally felacious. What is 
happening is an over-all 
transformation of man into 
an entirely different kind 
of species. The monkey is 
being shed. And the thing 
which is made of language, 
and of image, and imagina- 
tion, which has resided in 
the monkeys for so long, is 
now superceding biological 
evolution, and through cul- 
ture, taking the reigns 
over its own form and des- 
tiny. And the chaos of our 
age, which is so troubling 
to all of us, is nothing 
unusual at all. It is, in 
fact, the normal situation 
when a species begins to 
prepare to leave the plan- 
et. This is the chaos at 
the end of history. 

There is no question 
about it. The signs are all 
around us. The signs which 
are not all around us, but 
which are known to the afi- 
cionados of psychedelic 
drugs, are the transforma- 
tions of consciousness 
which are simultaneous with 
the transformation of tech- 
nical culture. These two 
are, in fact, expressions 
of each other . 

These times are the 
birthpangs of a new humani- 

Andrew Weil cont. 

the person go away... satisfied.. 

W.N,- As with Valium. 

A.W.- As with Valium. Those 
have been the most popular pre- 
scribed drugs in history. They 
change from time to time. There 
originally was morphine, opium, 
alcohol, then morphine again, 
then cocaine at the turn of the 
century, which was given out for 
everything! Then came heroin, 
which was recommended as a safe 
cough suppressant. Then a whole 
series of synthetic narcotics 
which were released to the world 
as non-addicting narcotics. And 
always, after a number of years, 
the people admit that it was 
just as addicting as anything 
else. Amphetamines, which were 
given to countless overweight 
people, and depressed house- 
wives in the 1950s* and 60s', 
And then Valium and Librium, 
which I heard recently, were 
the most prescribed drugs in 
the world. 

As a profession, medical 
doctors have abdicated responsi- 
bility in this area. They have 
let the criminal justice net- 
work, and law enforcement, and 
courts move right into an area 
that they should have jurisdic- 
tion over. They did not fight 
for their professional rights 
when the law enforcement estab- 
lishment moved into the area of 
disapproved drugs. 

W.N.- Are you implying that all 
drugs should be available 
through prescription? 

A.W.- I think no drug should be 
illegal. How we get to that ide- 
al state from where we are now, 
I don't know. I'm certainly in 
favor of decriminalization of 
all drugs, for possession and 
use. I think that would have to 
go along with a dismantling of 
the whole apparatus of drug law 
that we have built up, which has 
really created most of the prob- 
lem we have today. I think that 
has to go hand-in-hand with real 
education of everybody about 
what the risks and benefits of 
drugs are, and that includes 
doctors. Instead of a black mar- 
ket in cocaine in this country, 
I would like to see a medicinal 
preparation of coca leaf that 
doctors could prescribe. They 
ought to be able to explain to 
people why it is safer to use 
coca leaves than to use cocaine. 
But they don't understand that, 
because they think that refined 
white powders are more scienti- 
fic, better than natural plants 

is awareness that you are using 
a drug. Look at the number of 
coffee addicts who have no sense 
that coffee is a strong drug, 
one that can cause physical ad- 
diction. Or cigarette addicts 
who have no idea that the drug 
they are using is the most ad- 
dictive drug known. Or alcohol 
users who rant and rave about 
illegal drugs and have no sense 
that the drug they are involved 
with is, by far, the most toxic 
drug. And that doesn't just ap- 
ply to legal drug users. Plenty 
of smokers of marijuana don't 
like to hear marijuana called a 
drug. That's the beginning of a 
bad relationship with drugs. One 
of the things that traditional 
peoples have going for them, in 
their relationship with drug 
plants, is that they begin with 
an awareness of that being a 
special thing, a sacred or magi- 
cal plant, and they build a 
ritual around it. 

which are seen as being old- 
fashioned and inexact. Cocaine 
provides a wonderful example of 
how not to interact with drug 
plants. Natural-form coca 
leaves have a very low concen- 
tration of cocaine, about one- 
half of one percent. It's com- 
bined with vitamins and miner- 
als. When you consume the coca 
leaves, you put the cocaine into 
your bloodstream and your brain 
very slowly. I have never seen a 
case of coca abuse among Indians 
in South America. I've seen no 
toxicity from it, nor dependence 
on it. A very different situa- 
tion from what I see with co- 
caine up here. 

When you put a concentrated 
drug into the brain much more 
directly, ( and by the way, the 
most direct way of doing that is 
smoking. That's even faster than 
intravenous injection. ) you 
greatly increase the toxicity 
and you greatly reduce your 
chances of forming a stable re- 
lationship with that substance 
over time. 

W.N.- I wonder if there's a new 
relationship arising from the 
interest in the drug as a part 
of a ritual. It's a little like 
the validity of an lsd trip, if 
you had a guide to carry you 
through it. The difference seems 
to be a matter of intention. 

A.W.- Definitely. One of the 
points that's made very clearly 
in Chocolate to Morphine , is 
that there is no such thing as 
good drugs or bad drugs. They 
all have potentials for good 
uses and potentials for bad 

The first characteristic of 
a good relationship with a drug, 

W.N.- Currently, there's been a 
new drug on the scene called ec- 
stacy. It seems to be working 
for a great number of people 
within the consciousness commu^ 
nity. What is this drug? 

A.W.- It's a close relative of 
mda. It should be called MDM, or 
MDMA. I've heard it called ADAM 
as well. It's one of a series of 
psychedelic drugs related to am- 
phetamines and to adrenalin. 
It's a shorter duration of ac- 
tion than mda. Otherwise, it's 
quite similar. In many people, 
in reasonable doses taken by 
mouth, it produces a very calm, 
centered state. I know a number 
of psychotherapists who find it 
very useful. I know many people 
who like to use it. I have not 
seen many bad reactions, espe- 
cially taken in reasonable 
doses... and assuming that the 
set and setting are supportive. 
As far as I know, it is not yet 
a controlled substance. 

W.N. - Perhaps we shouldn't have 
mentioned it. 

A.W.- I think it also has great 
medical potential. I've seen a 
lot of healing reactions that 
have been promoted by experi- 
ences with that kind of drug. 
It's a shame that the potential 
of psychedelics has been so lit- 
tle explored in medicine. Espe- 
cially since, as a group, psy- 
chedelics have the lowest abuse 
potential of all drugs. 

There are a couple of rear 
sons for this. One is that their 
physical toxicity is minimal, 
either in short term or in long 
term use. The amphetamine-like 
psychedelics like mda are 
slightly more toxic. The other 

High Frontiers 30 

thing is that because those 
drugs make such an impact on 
people, it l s very difficult to 
use them frequently or combine 
them with ordinary activities. I 
think the main risks o.f psyche- 
delics are bad trips. Those re- 
sult from set and setting, from 
taking them in inappropriate 
ways with inexperienced people. 
They're self-regulating. A very 
different situation than what 
you see with marijuana, where 
you quickly become tolerant to 
the major sensory effects. If 
you don't watch out with mari- 
juana, it can very easily become 
a habit that takes over your 

W.N.- Do you feel it's a physi- 
cal addiction or psychological? 

A.W.- I don't think that's a 
very important distinction. A 
marijuana habit can be very dif- 
ficult to break. And the fact 
that it doesn't have physical 
components, I don't know how im- 
portant that is. I think that 
dependencies and addictions are 
very difficult to break, whether 
they have physical components or 
not. Obviously that's not just 
drugs. People become addicted to 
lots of things besides drugs. To 
falling in love, to watching 
television, to jumping out of 
airplanes, there are all sorts 
of things that people become de- 
pendent on for their highs. I 
don't think there's anything es- 
pecially pharmacological about 
addiction. '• 

W.N.- Your own particular inter- 
est is primarily in hallucino- 

A.W.- I have to say I'm inter- 
ested in all of them. I tend, 
like the New World Indians, to 
gravitate toward stimulants and 
hallucinogens. I'm more inter- 
ested in them than I am in seda- 
tives. Actually, I'm interested 
in the experiences people have 
when they take drugs, and I 
think that those are really the 
product of the nervous system. 

It may be that when you have 
highs, in one way or another, 
the high depends on your own 
drugs. Drugs that your brain 
makes. It looks as if we make 
analogues of all the common ex- 
ternal drugs, with the excep- 
tion of marijuana. I don't think 
anyone has found an internalized 
analog of THC. But we certainly 
make our own uppers, downers, 
psychedelics. . . probably DMT, or 
something very close to it, 
that's made by the pineal gland 
in the brain. We make our own 
anti-depressants . 

It's also a very interest- 
ing question, as to why plants 
should produce chemicals that 
mimic the effects of substances 
made by the human brain. What 
does that say about the rela- 
tionship between human beings 
and plants? It may be that when 
you take, from outside, a sub- 
stance that resembles the effect 
of something you make in your 
own brain, and take it regular- 
ly, you shut off your internal 
production of the drug. That may 

create a physiological basis for 
dependence. It certainly looks 
like that's what happens in opi- 
ate users. There's a real dif- 
ference between people who are 
fascinated by opiates and peo- 
ple who aren't. I wonder If the 
people who are fascinated have 
some deficiency of endorphins. 
Maybe they percieve ordinary re- 
ality as more painful than oth- 
er people do, and when they take 
an external opiate, it makes it 
all right, But then you totally shut 
off your brains own production 
of endorphins. So if you stop 
them suddenly, you're left with 
such a deficiency that you are 
really sick. That may be the ba- 
sis for withdrawal. Maybe 
there's something you can do 
that would increase their brains 
production of endorphins. 

W.N.- I wonder if it can be done 
through the intellect. 

A.W.- It may be. There's re- 
search showing that when acu- 
puncture is used to produce an- 
aesthesia, the effect can be 
blocked by giving the person a 
narcotic antagonist. Endorphins 
seem to be the basis of that. 
Maybe acupuncture could stimu- 
late endorphin production in 
the brain. 

W.N.- What similarities are 
there between the use of psycho- 
active drugs in various cultures 
and in various spiritual prac- 
tices, in your opinion? 


A.W.- There is a long tradition 
of the use of psycho-active 
drugs In religious practices. 
That's all around the world. 
Probably every drug you can name 
has been put to that use in one 
place or another. Coffee was 
used as a spiritual aid in early 
Muslim sects. Alcohol has a long 
history of religious uses, of 
which we can still see the use of 
wine in Jewish and Christian rit- 
uals. Marijuana was used as a re- 
ligous sacrament in ancient Indi- 
a. It still is, to some extent. 
The psychedelic plants, obvious- 
ly, among New World Indians, and 
the sub-cultures here have used 
them in that way. You can also 
look at other religous practices, 
like whirling among the Der- 
vishes, or prolonged fasting, 
chanting, or meditating, which 
may produce similar effects by 
affecting the production of neu- 
rohormones. There's several his- 
torical examples where a drug 
began in that kind of ritualized 
religous context, and then es- 
caped that context to become a 
secular, everyday drug. And with 
that kind of change, there came 
abuse of the substance. Coffee 
Is an example. When people took 
it once a week to stay up all 
night and chant and pray, you 
didn't find people getting de- 
pendent on it. It was one that 
escaped that religous usage and 
became an everyday drug. The 
people took it because they 
liked the feeling. Then it be- 
came a habit and eventually a 
habit which is not too easy to 

W.N.- That's an example of over- 
use negating the original pur- 
pose and function. 

A.W.- Right. And that is a very 
clear pattern with all psychoac- 
tive drugs. Their usefulness to 
people is crucially related to 
frequency of use. 

But I don't think it's pos- 
sible to say what too frequent 
use is. I think that depends on 
the individual. The crucial is- 
sue is whether, as you've used 
the drug over time, does the ex- 
perience that you're getting 
with it hold up to what you got 
initially, what you liked about 
it? If they don't, that's a 
strong sign that you've been us- 
ing it too much, and you should 
cut down on your frequency of 
use, or stop using it for a 
while.. That's true of all 
drugs. The use of a drug, fre- 
quently, creates its own need. 
And that need is the basis of 
repetitive use. It's interesting 
to watch some people when they 
get into that bind. They think 
that what's wrong is that 
they're not using enough, or 
they need something stronger. 
You see that very clearly with 
marijuana. When people are not 
getting as high as they want 
with marijuana, they think that 
the problem is that they need 
stronger pot. All you have to do 
is stop smoking it for a while. 

W.N.- And that can depend on 
finding a substitute or an 
equivalent, right? 

A.W.- Or being willing to toler- 
ate some pain and discomfort. 
When you meet people that use 
opiates, heroin, and who aren't 
addicted, they're very interest- 
ing people. They are willing to 
tolerate a certain amount of 
discomfort, a kind of mild with- 
drawal. They are willing to pay 
the price to stay in a stable 
relationship with the drug. 

W.N.- There seems to be two cat- 
egories. One is expanded reali- 
ty, and the other is running 
from everyday reality. 

A.W.- It's a little risky to 
generalize. But, I think that a 
lot of people who become depend- 
ent on depressants are people 
who want to screen out internal 
noise or anxiety. One of the 
great appeals of heroin is that 
it's a very good drug for bore- 
dom. It makes time pass faster. 
Whereas, people who take psyche- 
delics, I don't think they're 
looking for that. If you don't 
want to look inside your mind 
psychedelics are not the thing 
to take. I think their main ad- 
vantage is that they can show 
you, very powerfully, that other 
ways of being exist. I think 
that, ideally, they can motivate 
you to find other ways of get- 
ting there that can keep you 

W.N.- What sort of change of 
consciousness can you see, as a 
doctor, for people who would 
like to get off of coffee or 


A.W. - Information. Knowledge. 
I'm a real believer in truthful 
information enabling people to 
make intelligent decisions. If 
you understand that tobacco, in 
the form of cigarettes, is the 
most addictive drug known, and 
that the addiction can form 
within a matter of hours, which 
you cannot say of any other 
drug. One thing that argues for 
is that you really have no time 
to experiment with that drug. A 
British study done last year 
concluded that a youngster who 
smokes more than one cigarette 
has only a 15% chance of remain- 
ing a non-smoker. That's aston- 

When I was in medical 
school, it was always taught 
that tobacco addiction was psy- 
chological. It's not psycholog- 
ical. It has a real physiologi- 
cal basis. It has to do with de- 
livery of repeated pulses of 
nicotine to deep brain centers. 

Cigarette addiction is, we 
now know, a product of the mod- 
ern cigarette industry, which 
began in this country after the 
civil war with the invention of 
a new type of tobacco, called 
bright tobacco, that was milder, 
and a method of curing that made 
a mild enough smoke which could 
be inhaled deeply. Up until 
then, tobacco was so harsh that 
you couldn't inhale it deeply or 
often. As soon as you enable 
people to do that, they over- 
night become addicts. So you 
have a captive audience for your 
product. The economic recon- 
struction of the South was 
based on that. And as a gesture 
to that, the columns on the Sen*- 
ate side of the Capitol Building 
in Washington, are decorated 
with tobacco leaves. There is so 
much irrationality about drugs 
in this culture. People talk 
about drug pushing. What is a 
more shameful kind of drug push- 
ing than tobacco marketing? 
Ninety or ninety-five percent of 
cigarette addicts begin their 
addiction as teenagers. And the 
tobacco industry knows perfectly 
well where its' buyers come 
from, although they vigorously 
deny that they make an appeal to 
young people. Clearly, the im- 
ages of smokers, put out by the 
tobacco industry, is of young 
adults who are successful, sexu- 
ally successful, and so forth. 
That is drug pushing of the 
worst kind. 

W.N.- The combination of infor- 
mation and the truth, because 
there's been so much distortion 
in relation to drugs, that it 
invalidates any sort of discrim- 
ination. . . 

A.W.- I agree. What I think is 
different in this book ( Choco^ 
late to Morphine ) is that it s 
really all-inclusive. Usually 
the books that I pick up about 
drugs only talk about some 
drugs, the ones that people 
don't like. The ones that peo-> 
pie use themselves, that are so 
accepted that people don't see 
them as drugs, don't get men*- 




There's a chapter on medi-v 
cal drugs, over-the-counter 
drugs, and herbal remedies that 
are psycho-active. There's a 
section on anti-histamines, 
which are powerful psycho-active 
drugs related to Thorazine. Peo- 
ple who are given a gastrointes- 
tinal drug like Lomodal for di- 
arrhea aren't generally aware 
that it contains a synthetic 
opiate which has a narcotic ef- 
fect on mood. The other const it- 
en t of it is a derivative of 
Nightshade. The nasal decon- 
gestants are also all stimu- 
lants. The first ones were Ben- 
zedrine inhalers. They had paper 
strips that were impregnated 
with amphetamines. 

One of the effects of all 
stimulants is to shrink your 
blood vessels. So when you put 
amphetamine or cocaine up your 
nose, your blood vessels shrink, 
and you can suddenly breathe. 
Amp the t amines, of course, stimu- 
late the central nervous system 
as well. So people get high from 
them. The manufacturers eventu- 
ally found synthetic derivatives 
which they convinced people were 
less stimulating, but many peo- 
ple get high on them. 

But after a period of time, 
when the nerves and blood ves- 
sels are constricted, there's a 
rebound effect when they expand 
to bigger than before. 

Stimulants are a clear case 
of a principle which, I think, 
is very easy to explain to peo- 
ple. Many people who take stimu- 
lants think they're getting some 
£rep <{ ifr of energy from heaven, 
it's just g iupp e q 'fr n tTteir 
heads. The energy that you feel 
when you take a stimulant is 
your energy. It's your energy, 
which is stored in your nervous 
system. All those drugs do is 
force your nerves to give it up 
at a time when they otherwise 
wouldn't. The consequence of 
that is, when the stimulant 
wears off, you're left with a 
depletion of energy. You feel 
let down. You feel lethargic 
and lousy and all those things 
you took the stimulant to avoid. 
If you're willing to tolerate 
that , and let your body re- 
charge awhile, there's nothing 
wrong with taking a stimulant 
every once in a while, if you 
need to. That's not hard to ex- 
plain to people. You can prove 
that to yourself, and it accords 
with your experience. 

That, to me, is what real 
drug education should be. So 
that people, when they choose 
to use drugs, can use them in an 
informed way, and give them- 
selves the best possible chance 
of not falling into bad rela- 
tionships with them. 


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R.U Sirius: » Nobody knows me... 
and he s runnin' scared! I'm 8 
miles higher off the ground than 
Papoon! I can eat more sushi and 
demerol sandwiches than Zippyi I 
stole the DeLorean tapes from Larry 
Flint and sold them to alien 
intelligences! I'M BAD!" 

Somerset Mau-Mau: "Pig Hearts Again!? 
BUT MOM! 1 B-J-u. • 


Three steps ahead of me into the 

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Cooler. Younger. I concede. " 

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Nice shoes. Nice shirts. Nice 
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